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Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by joelthelion on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:09PM (#16815029)
Don't worry, by the time it is complete and mature, it will be complex and full of quirks too.

I'm not convinced that even Google has the resources to build something like that successfully. Except perhaps if they target a very specific use case.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by johnklos on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:32PM (#16815277)
"not convinced that even Google"

Google CAN'T do something small, simple and elegant, partly for the very reason that they're too big.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:02PM (#16815598)
Google also can't be convinced to carry a project through to completion and release /salty.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by qarioz on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:51PM (#16816085)
Google is very good in marketing. For example go.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by weberc2 on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @11:30PM (#16817757)
Why do people say this? What marketing has Google ever done for Go?
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by mkl on Thursday April 12, 2018 @03:48AM (#16818792)
Sponsoring Go introduction workshops for university undergrads, complete with Google-swag prizes and actual Google employees flown in from another country.

So, quite a lot if that experience is anything to go by.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by yebyen on Thursday April 12, 2018 @01:05PM (#16822866)
I will say that my professor Axel Schreiner at RIT offered one of the two first Golang classes at a collegiate level back in... 2009? and he reached out to Google and said, "send us some Android phones so that we can develop Go on ARM"

They obliged with a full crate of first generation Motorola phones, each one preloaded with a 30 day free Verizon plan. Every person who took that class got one, and surely all of them made it back into the school's hands at the end of the quarter.

(I'm not sure how many people actually ever compiled and executed any go binaries on arm that year; we all learned Go, and it was a great class! But as far as the class, the phones were completely unnecessary. I think that they did make a more relevant class where the phones were able to be used again the year after that.)

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by pjmlp on Thursday April 12, 2018 @03:06AM (#16818634)
Its branding and companies using the language with hopes of being acquired by them is already good enough.

Had Go been released at AT&T and it would have shared the same fate as Limbo.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by weberc2 on Thursday April 12, 2018 @09:57AM (#16820938)
> companies using the language with hopes of being acquired by them

This is beyond belief. What companies are using Go with the hopes of being acquired by Google? Does anyone honestly believe that Google's acquisitions teams know or care about programming languages? Any business that acquires companies on that basis is doomed to failure, as is any company that hopes to be acquired on that basis.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by geodel on Thursday April 12, 2018 @11:43AM (#16822090)
Well if one doesn't like something, they have to come up with part hilarious and part wild assertions like this.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by ddalex on Thursday April 12, 2018 @10:21AM (#16821180)
as what ?
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by geodel on Thursday April 12, 2018 @09:45AM (#16820818)
The idea here is if it worked its marketing but if it doesn't its market that has spoken.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by skykooler on Thursday April 12, 2018 @12:00AM (#16817871)
Making it the first Google result for "go"? (Instead of the verb, or the game)
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by zaarn on Thursday April 12, 2018 @02:42AM (#16818538)
When I search "go" on google the first result I get is a package courier, then the game, then the verb... then comes Golang though.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by meddlepal on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @06:02PM (#16816154)
Go has been a success as well because of that marketing machine.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by weberc2 on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:49PM (#16816074)
Counterpoint: the Go programming language.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by panic on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @09:14PM (#16817254)
Did Go start as an official Google project? It always seemed like more of a side project that happened to be developed by Google engineers.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by weberc2 on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @10:53PM (#16817618)
It has always been associated with Google for as long as it has been known outside of Google. :)
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by OtterCoder on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:53PM (#16816097)
Which failed in its stated mission and fell back to being yet another just-ok web scripting language.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by kybernetikos on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @06:16PM (#16816243)
Java also has been a phenomenal success, just not as a language for applets.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by jrs95 on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @06:26PM (#16816314)
Um...what? Are you thinking of Dart?
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by silotis on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @07:52PM (#16816867)
Go initially billed itself as a language for systems programming, but that claim was quickly retracted when it turned out that Go's creators had a different notion of systems programming than everyone else.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by geodel on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @08:27PM (#16817042)
Not everyone. Just self-proclaimed authority who decided systems means operating system or some embedded code. Lots of companies I worked have title Systems Engineer or departments Systems engineering which has nothing to do with Operating systems but just some internal applications.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by dingo_bat on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @08:55PM (#16817166)
> Just self-proclaimed authority who decided systems means operating system or some embedded code

Systems does mean that. There are 2 broad categories of software you can write. One is software that provides a service to the user directly. That is an application. The other kind is software that provides a service to applications. That's systems software. Do you think there's something wrong with this notion? It's pretty well accepted over the decades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_programming

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by geodel on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @10:58PM (#16817639)
Well by that definition Docker, Kubernetes, etcd and so on are systems software. But people here somehow explicitly make it to mean Computer Operating Systems.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by slrz on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @10:50PM (#16817608)
Sure, and Go's most prolific users are in infrastructure software for distributed systems. You seem to agree with the quoted statement.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by weberc2 on Thursday April 12, 2018 @09:58AM (#16820950)
By this definition, Python and JavaScript are systems languages.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by jrs95 on Thursday April 12, 2018 @12:56PM (#16822777)
This was all over with way before the 1.0 release even happened. There's no point in arguing over something that was addressed several years ago before Go even reached stability. Plus, trying to say that Go was a "failure" because of this is absurd. It was an issue of terminology, not technology. Given Kubernetes, Docker, etc you would have to be totally delusional to claim that Go has been a failure.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by kk__ on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @06:09PM (#16816197)
30 years is a good time frame to judge a programming language.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by ehsankia on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @07:47PM (#16816848)
But Google as a whole isn't working on this. A lot of the projects at Google require collaboration across multiple teams, but I could see Fuschia being done by a fairly small and cohesive team.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by bitmapbrother on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @09:55PM (#16817403)
The last time I counted there were well over a hundred people just committing code alone.

https://fuchsia-review.googlesource.com/q/status:open

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by kev009 on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:12PM (#16815056)
What do you make of, for instance, OS X or VxWorks?
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by Alupis on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:19PM (#16815130)
OSX is based on Darwin, which is a Unix (BSD-like) operating system.

I'm certain you can find complexities and bloat in there too, if you look.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by catwell on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:38PM (#16815332)
I concur, macOS is a nightmare. I didn't think so before I had to write code for it, but I am currently writing code that runs on 5 OSs (Linux, Windows, macOS, Android and iOS) and macOS is by far the worst of all. In particular, everything related to filesystems was a nightmare, especially HFS+. Thankfully Apple is replacing it with the much more sane APFS.

I don't have much experience with them but I think VxWorks and QNX are good examples of simpler OSs. I do have some experience with Minix3 and it is certainly one. I guess the BSDs stand somewhere in the middle.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by dfox on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:27PM (#16815856)
QNX always had practically oriented limitations of the general microkernel idea (eg. QNX native IPC/RPC is always synchronous) which allowed it to be essentially the only reasonably performant true micro kernel OS in the 90's. Unfortunately it seems that after QNX got repeatably bought by various entities the OS got various weird compatibility-with-who-knows-what hacks.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by shp0ngle on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:25PM (#16815195)
Oh hell yeah

OS X has tons of weird quirks and compatibility mindfucks going back to their transition from OS 9 (all those .DS_Store and _filename files for "resource forks")

Backwards compatibility is #1 reason for increasing complexity. Apple is sometimes good in cutting away compatibility for the sake of cleaning up, but there are still weird issues poking now and then

hell the whole NSEverything is a compatibility thing with NextStep, which is long dead.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by catwell on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:39PM (#16815350)
Apple doesn't really appeat to care about backward compatibility though. They break lots of things with every release of the OS. I would give that excuse to Microsoft, but not Apple.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by Shorel on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:40PM (#16815988)
True. But the legacy code is still there.

Which is the worst of both worlds.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by jernfrost on Thursday April 12, 2018 @08:59AM (#16820400)
Disagree. Microsoft keep making new APIs and depricating old ones. With Mac you got cocoa which goes back to 1989 and you can still use.

It might not be backwards compatible but from a developers perspective it is nice to be able to reuse old knowledge.

I think Apple has been much better than MS or Linux in continously modernizing and upgrading what they have. On windows and linux things tend to become dead ends as new flashy APIs appear.

Sure old win32 and motif apps might still run but nobody really develops using these APIs anymore.

On windows I first use win32, then MFC, then it was WinForms. Then all of that got depricated and we got WPF, silverlight and then I sort of lost track of what was going on. Meanwhile on Linux people used tcl/tk for GUIs early on. And there was motif, wxeindows. KDE and Gnome went through several full rewrites.

If we look at MacOS X as the modern version of NeXTSTEP the core technology has been remarkable stable.

Sure they have broken compatibility plenty of times but the principles and API are at their core the same.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by pjmlp on Friday April 13, 2018 @03:43AM (#16827868)
Quickdraw VR, Quickdraw 3D, NetTalk, JavaBridge, Carbon, Objective-C GC, RubyCocoa, WebObjects, ....

One just needs to look into the right spot.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by blattimwind on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @06:10PM (#16816208)
Doesn't work, isn't maintained, but remains as an attack vector and failure mode.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by kev009 on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:24PM (#16815188)
I'm referencing the abilities of F500 companies to sustain OS development. OS X has roots in mach, and some BSD, but to call it either one is trivializing the amount of work that has gone on.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by Waterluvian on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:22PM (#16815166)
Of course. And they don't even pretend that's untrue. Every few releases they focus on lowering bloat.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by wvenable on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:28PM (#16815242)
OS X is literally the next version of NeXTStep and, as others have pointed out, was built on other OS technologies.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by dfox on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:21PM (#16815803)
And NeXTStep itself is to large extent one big ugly hack that stems from experience of trying to build Unix on top of Mach. In fact it is not microkernel, but monolithic kernel running as one big Mach task, thus simply replacing user/kernel split with task/priviledged-task split (which to large extent is also true for OS X).
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by bitofhope on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @06:25PM (#16816308)
>Unix on top of Mach

Didn't Mach start out as a replacement kernel for BSD? Building a Unix on top of Mach is like building a truck over truck chassis.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by GeekyBear on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @07:37PM (#16816795)
Correct. The Mach research project at Carnegie Mellon aimed to build a replacement kernel for BSD that supported distributed and parallel computing.

Next's VP of Software Engineering, Avie Tevanian, was one of the Mach project leads. Richard Rashid, who lead the Mach project ended up running Microsoft Research's worldwide operations.

Their work on a virtual memory subsystem got rolled back into BSD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)

The Computer History Museum has an interesting long form interview with Avie:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwCdKU9uYnE Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtpIFrOGTHk

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by dfox on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @07:20PM (#16816695)
It did not. Mach is traditional microkernel which provides IPC mechanism, process isolation and (somewhat controversially) memory mapping primitives and not much else.

In late 80's/early 90's there were various projects that attemted to build unix on top of that as true micro kernel architecture with separate servers for each system service. Performance of such design was horrible and there are two things that resulted from that that are still somewhat relevant: running whole BSD/SysV kernel as Mach task, which today means OS X and Tru64 (at the time both systems had same origin as both are implementations of OSF Unix) and just ignoring the problem which is approach taken by GNU/Hurd.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by snvzz on Thursday April 12, 2018 @03:12AM (#16818659)
>slowness

Worth noting that's because Mach IPC is extremely slow, an order of magnitude slower than L4 family.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by BurningCycles on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:21PM (#16815154)
AFAIK OSX is built on mostly pre-existing components like Mach and FreeBSD. I know nothing about VxWorks.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by saagarjha on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:23PM (#16815174)
I don't quite see where you're trying to go with these. Are they supposed to be examples of POSIX systems or something else?
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by michaelmrose on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @04:27PM (#16815223)
Google already has a track record of building half an OS in android and its a pretty mediocre one with some redeeming qualities.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by discreteevent on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @05:24PM (#16815837)
The fuchsia part of android is linux? Anyway Google has a lot of people working for it. I don't think anyone would have expected NT to come from Microsoft at the time that it did.
Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by bitmapbrother on Wednesday April 11, 2018 @07:07PM (#16816608)
Is this the same OS that smokes an iPhone X with an A11? Not bad for "half an OS".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B65ND8vUaKc

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by michaelmrose on Thursday April 12, 2018 @01:08AM (#16818172)
You posted a video wherein the tester simply sequentially opens and closes a series of apps on a Samsung and Apple device seeing which will run through the sequence faster...and the Samsung was a bit slower.

In theory it makes me wonder if iphone's storage is slightly faster than the latest galaxy or if the process by which one loads an iphone app is slightly faster/more efficient than the one by which an android app is loaded or if the tiny selection of apps the reviewer picked are just better optimized for iphone. Nobody smoked anyone and nothing of note was learned by anyone. So much so that I wonder why you bothered to watch said link or paste it here.

I said half an OS because its built on technologies like linux and java not because its half assed even though it is.

Re:Fuchsia is not Linux by bitmapbrother on Thursday April 12, 2018 @03:54PM (#16824355)
>You posted a video wherein the tester simply sequentially opens and closes a series of apps on a Samsung and Apple device seeing which will run through the sequence faster...and the Samsung was a bit slower.

Certain apps were slower to load on the Samsung device. Additionally, the Samsung device encoded the 4K siginificantly video faster and took round 1 by 14 seconds and round 2 by 16 seconds.

>In theory it makes me wonder if iphone's storage is slightly faster than the latest galaxy or if the process by which one loads an iphone app is slightly faster/more efficient than the one by which an android app is loaded or if the tiny selection of apps the reviewer picked are just better optimized for iphone. Nobody smoked anyone and nothing of note was learned by anyone. So much so that I wonder why you bothered to watch said link or paste it here.

The iPhone X has faster storage and a significantly faster SoC. A 30 second win by the Samsung phone is what I could call getting smoked.

>I said half an OS because its built on technologies like linux and java not because its half assed even though it is.

And iOS is was a decedent of MacOS which itself is a decedent of NeXTSTEP. It also uses a language 11 years older than Java. So it sounds like iOS also meets your criteria of being "half assed".