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Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by tcbawo on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:38PM (#16760364)
Is there anything sadder or creepier than an hourglass with a swastika on it? What a horrible time for humanity.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by wallace_f on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:57PM (#16760840)
Although I don't believe this is worse than the injustices of generations past, it's certainly sad to witness politics in 2018 contain a plethora of virtue signalling, charades, and ineffectual action. We support the killings of innocents with our military industrial complex, and our media tells us its necessary because otherwise we will lose jobs[1]. Where is the investigation of 500 million missing dollars of charitable relief to Haiti[2]? Not to mention, where is the media coverage of the CLOUD act, and why did congress underhandedly sneak a law that harms Americans rights into a "must pass" omnibus spending bill without[3]? The war on drugs and prison state? Or any of the homeless crises? Unjust and corrupt healthcare and public health? Cities with murder rates higher than anywhere in Africa or the Middle East? Surging suicide rates[4]? And we are just scratching the surface here, and when you get to the bottom there are things you can't even talk about, like human rights for Palestinians[5]

Tyranny, injustice and oppression were not simply eliminated at the end of WWII. And living today to witness the convenient virtue signalling about a historical artifact of a long-defeated tyrant, juxtaposed with the willingness to tolerate current injustice, is really sad.

But isn't that what made Nazi Germany possible? Our willingness to tolerate injustice, so long as it doesn't happen to us? Our desire to follow authority--to serve in the court of despots? That is the irony here, which calls to light the real meaning of this kind of virtue signalling: If we lived under the reign of any of those other tyrants, in Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, or wherever, would we all suddenly be among activists, not just mere virtue signallers championing the virtues of our leaders?

I don't mean to come down hard on you personally; I just personally wish to see the conversation move away from moral grandstanding to moral responsibility.

1 - https://theintercept.com/2016/09/09/wolf-blitzer-is-worried-...

2 - https://www.npr.org/2015/06/03/411524156/in-search-of-the-re...

3 - https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/responsibility-deflect...

4 - https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/health/us-suicide-rate...

5 - https://theintercept.com/2018/04/02/israel-killing-palestine...

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Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by krapp on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:03PM (#16760523)
> Yes. The sadder thing is people not knowing swastika's history and that it is auspicious for almost 2 billion people including me a, a Buddhist.

You, and your fellow Buddhists, need to realize that Hitler had a far more profound impact on Western civilization (unfortunately) than did the Buddha, and that Westerners who recognize the swastika as a symbol of hate do so because for half the world, and most of a century, it has been a symbol of hate.

Those Westerners are not misinformed, or ignorant, or incorrect in doing so, they're interpreting a symbol in the context with which it was introduced to Western culture. You can tell people that it's a misappropriated symbol of peace, but no one in the West is likely ever going to look at a Nazi swastika and see a manji first, even knowing that, any more than Buddhists likely see a manji and think first about Hitler.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by Alex3917 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:14PM (#16760589)
> no one in the West is likely ever going to see a Nazi swastika and see a manji first

You're assuming that anti-Holocaust people are going to outlast pro-Holocaust people, but based on history this seems like a questionable assumption. E.g. it took less than 50 years for LoTR to go from an anti-war parable inspired by the horrors of WW1, to being an action movie glorifying indiscriminate killing. Similarly, compare the photos of people standing in front of Auschwitz with the photos that come up in GIS of people standing in front of the Colosseum:

https://www.123rf.com/photo_36629433_happy-mother-and-baby-g...

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by krapp on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @09:19PM (#16760937)
Tolkein said the Lord of the Rings wasn't an anti-war parable or allegory, although that's a valid interpretation, it's wasn't the author's intent. And the books had plenty of war and indiscriminate killing in them, being based as they were on Germanic and European mythologies which considered war a glorious and noble act.

Maybe in a thousand years Westerners will forget about Nazism and the swastika, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they will replace that knowledge with the Buddhist interpretation of the same symbol. Sure, stranger things have happened, it's not impossible, but it seems incredibly unlikely.

It's certainly not going to happen within my lifetime or yours.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by jstarfish on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:51PM (#16760446)
A few million people died under that misappropriated symbol though. It sucks you can't use it for its intended message anymore, but most peoples' sympathies lie elsewhere.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by pound on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:05PM (#16760537)
Should we also abandon cross? So many people died during the Crusades
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by whatshisface on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:09PM (#16760562)
Quite a few people died on the crosses themselves, including one very well-remembered.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by krapp on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:10PM (#16760576)
To be perfectly fair, though... it is a morbid symbol.

Had the Romans been fond of hanging, Christians might be walking around wearing nooses around their necks.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by jstarfish on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:17PM (#16760607)
The cross is a sign of solidarity for supporters of one particular person who died on it, not as a sign of solidarity for the people who put him on it.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by pound on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @10:26PM (#16761287)
Similar things can be said about swastika, it's not a sign of solidarity with the people who were killing others during the war
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by domevent on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:57PM (#16760488)
A few times a few at least, and that’s only counting extermination in the KZ’s and VZ’s. If you consider the total casualties of the war, including combat deaths (even German) and civilian casualties outside of the camps, it’s more in the realm of 50-80 million. Subtract 3-5 million for the Pacific theater, and it’s still a lot.

It also doesn’t help that neo-Nazis work today under the same banner.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by paloaltokid on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:54PM (#16760470)
You’re getting downvotes but I think it’s unwarranted. The swastika has a deep and significant history; it would be worthwhile for everyone interested in WW2 history to understand this misappropriated symbol.

I don’t know that it makes a difference to say it but I had family members killed by the Nazis so I’m not detached from the history. That said, I think most people from a Western country could say the same thing.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by Karupan on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:55PM (#16760476)
As a Hindu, this saddens me as well. Even though I’m not religious, it was a symbol of prosperity. I sometimes wonder how centuries of history can be appropriated and misrepresented by one bad actor.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by aortega on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:05PM (#16760536)
Also the toothbrush mustache was sexy before WW2.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by drb91 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:04PM (#16760532)
1) swastikas usually rotate the opposite direction when used in a buddhist temple, at least in the west, I’ve noticed. Certainly it is useful for differentiating from the most antisemitic symbol of all time.

2) I’m not sure it’s so sad when buddhist is less of an expressive culture and more of internal reflection. That is, I don’t see peoples’ religious beliefs trampled by trying to be respectful to those who do view it as a nazi symbol.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by forapurpose on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:01PM (#16760511)
What a bullshit excuse to post a swastika on HN, and an attempt to rehabilitate and normalize the symbols of Nazism. The haters always find a way around the rules. The problem with Nazism obviously isn't the loss of this symbol; that's not what needs addressing.

If you read the strategies of the White Christian supremacists, they say not to make statements that others find outrageous but to gently push the envelope and slowly normalize their beliefs. Here, as I said, they are trying to rehabilitate Nazi symbology.

EDIT: In response to below, the problem with Nazism is people like me? Wow. I thought the problem was mass murder, brutal oppression, and an ideology that advocates it. But perhaps it's the poor, persecuted Neo-Nazis, who in another by-the-book rhetorical turn, try to look like victims.

EDIT2: dang: Sure, and let's keep the swastikas off HN. That and the hate speech are the real problems with very serious consequences. When you don't do anything about it, it would be irresponsible for me (or anyone) to stand by and quietly acquiesce. I know it's a hard problem, but burying our heads in the sand is what Facebook does. If you think my claims about what's happening are absurd, talk to someone you trust who knows these things: Certainly in 2018, we can't think propaganda in online forums is at all an absurd prospect.

EDIT3: Perhaps I could have found a cooler way to respond, but it's a pretty inflammatory thing and the commenter, supposedly versed in symbology, knew that it would be. Sorry if I caused any extra headache, but I don't regret pointing out the problem.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by dang on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:10PM (#16760575)
Please keep these absurd flamewars off HN.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by dbsvsv on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:06PM (#16760540)
> What a bullshit excuse to post a swastika on HN. The haters always find a way around the rules. The problem with Nazism obviously isn't the symbol

Of course the problem isn't the symbol. It's people like you. On one hand you claim that I used an excuse to do something very wrong- post the symbol. And call me a hater. On the other hand you say the problem isn't the symbol.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by dang on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:10PM (#16760577)
We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines.

This sort of flamewar is quite off topic here.

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Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by paloaltokid on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:00PM (#16760501)
I am a practicing Buddhist and have been for more than a decade. This is complete and utter bullshit and a total misunderstanding of the teaching.

You can be detached and still saddened by what you see in the world. Non attachment is not the same as callousness or numbness. If anything, you feel things more deeply.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by drharby on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:04PM (#16760533)
Thats one way to rationalize your world view on another person. 'Just get over it lol, isnt that, like, your thing?'
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Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by paloaltokid on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:56PM (#16760484)
I respectfully disagree. I had family members killed by the Nazis and I care about the swastika being reclaimed, at least in the sense that it should be common knowledge that it was a misappropriated religious symbol. For some folks, the understanding stops at “swastika = Nazi”.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by zer00eyz on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:08PM (#16760559)
By that rational we should also hate churches -- they after all have crosses on them and those have been appropriated by groups like the clan to project a message of hate.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by Karupan on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:04PM (#16760527)
That’s quite an arrogant statement. You may not care, but as one among a billion Hindus, we certainly do.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by paulie_a on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @09:08PM (#16760887)
Which is why I was specific to western culture. Swastika is Nazi in that realm.
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by whatyoucantsay on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:25PM (#16760643)
Buddhism and its symbols have survived for millennia and will outlast your country and all Nazis as well.

Edit: the same can be said for Hindus.

Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by drharby on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:02PM (#16760513)
That is a bloody opinion
Re:Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentin... by drharby on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:01PM (#16760509)
Bold statement - its just an hour glass.

You know more were murdered under the guise of the chinese communist flag?