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Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by tyingq on Friday March 30, 2018 @01:39PM (#16718153)
This article resonated with me. Once, I had a leader that would question parts of my org, or budgeted projects, why they were needed, etc. Her real question was "I need to cut X dollars out of the budget". I could have immediately helped that goal if she asked that exact question. Instead, though, she was going about it in an oblique way, trying to figure out where I was being incompetent.

Pretty embarrassed about our current state of leadership skills. In my current organization, we call this syndrome "bring me a rock". Like, I bring a rock, and she says "it's too big, or too brown, or whatever". Instead of outright saying, "I need a medium, smooth, grey, rock". I can deliver if you're explicit.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dvt on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:33PM (#16718640)
> Pretty embarrassed about our current state of leadership skills. In my current organization, we call this syndrome "bring me a rock". Like, I bring a rock, and she says "it's too big, or too brown, or whatever". Instead of outright saying, "I need a medium, smooth, grey, rock". I can deliver if you're explicit.

This sounds like an example of the AZ problem[1].

[1] http://azproblem.info/

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by beaconstudios on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:22PM (#16719898)
have you made more sites like this beyond the AZ and XY problems? I'd love to be able to cite these when trying to talk about these topics with people.
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dvt on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:31PM (#16719953)
The XY problem is kind of famous and I actually didn't make that website (although I find myself citing it all the time). I kind of "invented" the AZ problem because I ran into it multiple times at my previous job and thought about formalizing it in some way.

Hope you find the website helpful! :)

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by jaclaz on Saturday March 31, 2018 @05:55AM (#16722618)
Bookmarked, thanks. :-)

JFYI, and in case you want to add a reference to the chocolate covered banana:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160523201519/http://homepage.nt...

http://web.archive.org/web/20160329162624/http://homepage.nt...

that I have been citing a lot, together with the Yes/No and the Standard Litany:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160527013035/http://homepage.nt...

http://web.archive.org/web/20160604095422/http://homepage.nt...

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dvt on Saturday March 31, 2018 @08:41PM (#16726016)
Oh man, I love that "chocolate covered banana" example, I've never heard of it before, thanks!

Will definitely source these, how come the original site is down? Edit: found one that's up: https://jdebp.eu/FGA/put-down-the-chocolate-covered-banana.h...

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by jaclaz on Sunday April 01, 2018 @05:16AM (#16727451)
Good find, thanks, just bookmarked it, it must be the new one, over the years the site moved already a couple of times, it was:

http://homepages.tesco.net/J.deBoynePollard/

Before being:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/

all the FGA's are nice, (besides - the technical ones - extremely accurate) if you loved the chocolate covered banana one, you will surely appreciate the "legacy" correct definition:

https://jdebp.eu/FGA/legacy-is-not-a-pejorative.html

and don't miss the note about the secret 7:

https://jdebp.eu/Humour/microsoft-monopoly.html

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by beaconstudios on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:44PM (#16720044)
Interesting, I'd never heard of it before - but it puts a name on something I think we've all experienced many times. The AZ problem is a useful generalisation too, it digs towards the root cause.

Do you know if it belongs to a category of problems, in the same manner that e.g. the "either-or" belongs to the category of logical fallacies and confirmation bias belongs to cognitive biases? I always find those types of categories useful in building mental models.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dvt on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:54PM (#16720099)
> Do you know if it belongs to a category of problems

You kind of put me on the spot here, I'm not sure. I'd have to think about it for a while, but my gut feeling is that, yeah, it probably falls in the overarching category of "not knowing/realizing that you don't know something" -- so the failure point is epistemic.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by beaconstudios on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:58PM (#16720130)
no pressure :) I was just curious if you'd happened upon such a thing. I find these groups of errors helpful for understanding interpersonal dynamics - I might go have a read around, I'll reply on here if I find anything.
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by russh on Friday March 30, 2018 @06:08PM (#16720205)
if (today.month != tomorrow.month): send_email()
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dvt on Friday March 30, 2018 @06:33PM (#16720385)
I think you missed the point. The point isn't to be clever or figure out a way around the ill-suited requirements, the point is to avoid coming up with ill-suited requirements altogether!
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by thwarted on Friday March 30, 2018 @09:46PM (#16721184)
Yeah, but this is a bad example of that. It's not that the last day of the month is an ill-suited requirement, it's that, in the example, the programmer who wrote the code for the end of the month did more work and wrote more error prone code than really needed to be.

If this was a code review, the end of the month code in this example should get flagged for its complexity, when it can be replaced with the single conditional "if tomorrow.day == 1".

It's entirely fine to question the specification/request here, and ask why the end of the month. Not because the code that detects the end of the month can be written in a complex fashion, as it was here. Rather it doesn't seem to meet the requirements: The Account Manager doesn't realize that by processing on the last day of the month, rather than after the last day of the month, is going to miss out on some portion of the last day of "accumulated fees" for the month (depending on the rest of the implementation). The Account Manager has requested an implementation detail that doesn't meet the requirements, and now rework is required.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dvt on Friday March 30, 2018 @10:54PM (#16721407)
> If this was a code review, the end of the month code in this example should get flagged for its complexity, when it can be replaced with the single conditional "if tomorrow.day == 1".

But it's not a code review. It's a frivolous and simple example to show the underlying impact of not understanding the context of a hypothetical feature request. I have a feeling that in typical engineer fashion, you're missing the forest for the trees. Trust me, I've been there :)

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by thwarted on Saturday March 31, 2018 @05:42PM (#16725321)
It's a frivolous and simple example to show the underlying impact of not understanding the context of a hypothetical feature request.

Yes, it is a contrived example, that's my point. But it's not the programmer that didn't understand the feature request, it's the entire organization. A questionable decision earlier made by the Account Manager led to an overly complex, questionable implementation that will lead to more code and more bugs. Trust me, I've been there.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by someguydave on Saturday March 31, 2018 @12:16AM (#16721694)
How does the computer know that today is the first day of the month without already having a complete calender implentation?
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by ramses0 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @06:59PM (#16760126)
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by EliRivers on Saturday March 31, 2018 @03:42PM (#16724803)
Better come up with a way to calculate tomorrow's date, then. I suppose it'll be today's date, plus one, unless today is the last day of the month. I'll just write a function first to calculate if today is the last day of the month...
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by AndrewKemendo on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:16PM (#16718508)
I don't know your specific situation however speaking broadly about this kind of line of questioning, a different perspective here is that she may have wanted to be able to evaluate the value of these different programs on her own, rather than be told what needs to happen.

In many cases middle managers think they know what needs to be cut or what programs are a waste without all of the facts of the organization. I saw this a lot in government.

For example some organization was on the books for the primary reason of being the focal point for a contract vehicle but was in a holding period waiting protest or something and not doing much for a year or two - so it looked ripe to cut - when in fact it was more of a "lady in waiting" for the broader organization.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by tyingq on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:21PM (#16718551)
Yes, but I'd classify that as micro-management. If you don't trust me at that level of detail, then why am I here?
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by AndrewKemendo on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:41PM (#16718713)
Again, in your specific situation it may have been. My point is that, the purpose behind getting into the weeds to such a degree as a manager isn't as obvious as it may seem - especially as a new manager who is trying to understand the organization.
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by Bartweiss on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:38PM (#16718686)
Depending on the company, it can also be a symptom of excess management layers.

If your grand-manager tells your manager "ok, today your job is to cut $X from this team's budget", then she'd better do that. She might know full well you have the time and capacity to do it yourself, but if she passed it down the chain someone might notice she wasn't doing anything.

Which, obviously, is equally dysfunctional. But it can explain why someone who isn't generally a micro-manager is churning up extra work.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by ryanmarsh on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:53PM (#16718800)
Leadership quality feels like it has declined as I’ve gotten older. When I began my career Stephen Covey was all the rage. Traditional leadership training was a necessity for middle managers moving up the ranks.

Then something changed. Having a softer touch became more important than results. This weird sort of litigation-phobic (pardon my inarticulate explanation) approach to all things took hold. Managers stopped giving clear feedback. They stopped assigning work, merely suggesting it. It’s completely bizarre. Especially when you’ve been in the military and seen real decentralized and self organizing leadership work.

These days as a consultant I go in and basically fill a leadership vacuum at each of my clients. I tell them this too. They shrug and keep shuffling and saying things that mean nothing. So weird. I don’t understand the corporate world.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by 3pt14159 on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:59PM (#16718831)
I think it has more to do with the average amount of time spent at an organization.

I consult for the Canadian government from time to time and I see plenty of great managers there. The main difference? Most people there for more than 2 or 3 years are there for life. They get to see the results of prolonged good leadership and they get to learn from leaders that they trust.

With tech you have random 27 year olds as C-levels at eight or nine digit valued companies (that was me some years back) and there's no way that you have the skill or experience or even respect for the position to do it well.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by tyingq on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:33PM (#16719963)
Don't know why your comment is being downvoted. False politeness is a real issue in many organizations. You're frustrated with me, but afraid to say why. That situation won't resolve itself.
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by digi_owl on Friday March 30, 2018 @02:45PM (#16718735)
> Pretty embarrassed about our current state of leadership skills. In my current organization, we call this syndrome "bring me a rock". Like, I bring a rock, and she says "it's too big, or too brown, or whatever". Instead of outright saying, "I need a medium, smooth, grey, rock". I can deliver if you're explicit.

Makes me think of stores about Steve Jobs, and how there would be a virtually endless runaround of him claiming not enough this, too much that.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by lostlogin on Friday March 30, 2018 @01:43PM (#16718175)
What would have happened if you had said, “I think you’re trying to find some money in the budget, would you like some help?”?
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by ghostbrainalpha on Friday March 30, 2018 @03:08PM (#16718915)
It's also tough to be that honest at some organizations.

Like if your manager said, I'm trying to reduce our costs by 10% so that I can get a big incentive bonus personally...

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by moate on Friday March 30, 2018 @04:22PM (#16719514)
Don't really see why motive matters in that case. The idea of misstating the problem doesn't exist (the bonus and the cost reductions are intrinsically tied to one another) and the additional clarity doesn't guarantee the desired behavior. It's possible a subordinate might not help you if they don't feel your personal gain is beneficial to them.

If a manager says "I need to reduce costs by 10%", the specific desired business outcome is clear. Reminding your subordinates that your pay and continued employment is tied to you completely the tasks and requests of the people you answer to doesn't seem needed. This isn't about "some organizations", it's just about efficiency.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by throw2016 on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:17PM (#16719871)
Organizations always want to reduce costs, there is always pressure to be efficient and reduce costs.

Usually the current costs are the cost of business, and if there is an externality ie economic downturn, some crisis, big lost deals, then there may be renewed pressure at which point this has already been communicated by the leadership to the org and everyone is on the same page.

Trying to reduce costs out of the blue is not usual, it suggests some individual thinks there is some inefficiency after studying the issue, or its a management consultant recently hired to explore that, but usually the people being requested for information would be briefed and know exactly the reason and why.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by tyingq on Friday March 30, 2018 @01:46PM (#16718215)
That's eventually how it worked out, but time and money were wasted in the process. Lots of man hours invested into justifying existing costs/orgs/projects.

When I could have offered up lower lying fruit if exact cost was identified as the driver up front. The questions weren't easy to translate into actual intent at first. Leadership styles profoundly affect efficiency.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by arwhatever on Friday March 30, 2018 @04:32PM (#16719575)
I call that playing the "Wrong, Guess Again!" Game.
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by scoggs on Friday March 30, 2018 @05:44PM (#16720043)
Or the "You need to read my mind to win" Game. I feel like that crops up a lot in romantic relationships a lot too...
Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by dikkechill on Friday March 30, 2018 @11:43PM (#16721591)
If you're interested in how that works, I can recommend psychologist Marshall Rosenberg (a student of Carl Rogers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkQlAL8mVPs

Another student of Carl Rogers was Joseph Weizenbaum, the creator of ELIZA.

Re:The Most Common Type of Incompetent Leader by ramses0 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:01PM (#16760136)
"Go Fish"