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Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lovelearning on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @02:43AM (#16695897)
I don't see much value in trying to use logical speculation to generalize such behaviors to an entire species.

Anybody who has observed animals and pets will have noticed how each and every animal has its own personality, likes, dislikes and peculiarities. Just like people, who, despite our airs, are just another species.

Some of my pets eat people food which my other pets don't even look at. Some of them play with balls, while others don't. On YouTube, I follow a cool guy who has a pure vegetarian pet cat getting along with many normal cats.

This particular elephant might have been simply curious about the smoke or might have been playing with it for the heck of it.

They are individual peculiarities and I don't think any conclusion can be drawn about the entire species from them.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by arama471 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:16AM (#16696034)
How is the the youtuber making sure the cat still gets stuff like taurine?

I ask because I've always heard that cats are obligate carnivores and cannot live off a vegan/vegetarian diet[1].

[1] https://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by zaarn on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:04AM (#16696198)
At the very least a vegetarian diet would require a cat to eat dietary supplements, though I doubt it would be healthy (and still vegetarian)
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by latch on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @05:52AM (#16696565)
How does a vegan get B12? Synthesis. Synthesized taurine is already added to some pet food.

A cursory search shows that small levels of taurine is available from vegan sources. Goat and buffalo milk appear to be the best vegetarian source, but, if ~75mg/day for a cat is correct, neither seem close to significant enough.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:59AM (#16696789)
I have a natural b12 deficiency and can’t eat a vegetarian diet right now because of it. At the same time lactose intolerance runs in the family (though I don’t have much of a problem wth it). My doctor ordered me to eat more red meat. The difference in my overall well-being has been exponential over the past two years because of it.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by latch on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @08:05AM (#16697034)
Not questioning this, but curious if you can explain more. Why can't you just do one or many of:

Taking a B12 supplement, eating fortified food (american breakfast cereals often have B12, especially the "healthier" options (plain cheerios, corn flakes, nut grapes, ...), nutritional yeast, ....), eating eggs?

You mentioned lactose intolerance, but since you aren't really bothered by it, I assume cheese and possibly yogurt are absolutely no problem.

I guess my question is why can't you. What is it about a natural b12 deficiency that makes it so the normal vegan or vegetarian options aren't sufficient?

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:53AM (#16698101)
I should have added that it's more complex than a simple low-B12. My blood work results have regularly shown low hemoglobin. It causes a lot of issues like inability to catch my breath, fatigue, and weakness as well as a foggy mind. The diagnosis was an Iron/B12 deficiency which is, IIRC, correlated. I don't have a ton of detail, myself. I had no leanings toward become a vegetarian so I didn't question his orders there. (edit: it's not completely related, but I'll note that my younger brother is vegetarian as his wife is vegan and he's as large as I am—maybe larger—and does just fine without poultry, red meat, or fish. Luck of the draw, it seems).

I'm certainly not saying there are no routes to surviving well as a vegetarian maintaining some form of anemia or other B12/Iron deficiency, but I'm assuming his direction was that due to its proven concentration.

I actually increased my diet of eggs, spinach, I'd long taken a cyanocobalamin orally daily before switching to a higher dose of methylcobalamin sublingual dose, and started eating yogurt.

I try and avoid an excess of cheese and grains because I simply don't need that much in the way of fats and carbohydrates in my current regimen.

Nutrition is complex, and I think it's generally accepted that acquiring nutrients through digestion is more reliable than supplementation. (so that I'm not saying this completely out of my ass, [0] [1])

[0] https://www.nature.com/news/nutrition-vitamins-on-trial-1.15...

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-v...

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by dangero on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:11AM (#16697751)
You listed two telltale signs of celiac disease: Low B12 Percieved Lactose Intolerance
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by devotedtoneu on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:52AM (#16697602)
I'm in the same boat, I resolved it with Nutritional Yeast.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:59AM (#16698171)
I prefer Brewer's Yeast in a particular liquid form ;)

But I actually had to look up nutritional yeast as I hadn't heard of it here (Canada). It actually sounds like a promising supplement to my own diet. It seems like the only catch is that it doesn't produce B12 naturally, and I'll have to be sure to pick up the fortified version (unless they all are?)

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by latch on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:41AM (#16698568)
No. They don't all have added B12. Add to popcorn.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by amelius on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:02AM (#16696799)
How did you discover you had a deficiency?
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by chrisvalleybay on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:44AM (#16696940)
Do a blood test. All vegetarians should do blood tests every now and then.

As an aside; I ate a vegan diet for 2-3 years and my B12 was fine. That’s not to say it would’ve been fine 2-3 years later, though.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:51AM (#16697589)
Like the other commenter said— it was a blood test. The result was actually low hemoglobin. Low hemo unfortunately runs in the family as well– my mother has a severe case of anemia and suffers a range of issues related to that. Thankfully, I'm nowhere near that case.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by nitrogen on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:15AM (#16696032)
...a pure vegetarian pet cat...

How does the cat obtain whatever missing nutrients cause most cats to be obligate carnivores?

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by Ensorceled on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @08:34AM (#16697182)
If it goes outside at all ... it doesn't.

We had a cat that didn't eat cat food from May until October, we didn't assume it was a breatharian during that time.

When our cat disappeared (we assume a fox or wolf got her) after almost a decade of this, the farmers to either side of us started having mice and rat problems again :-)

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lovelearning on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:39AM (#16696108)
I'm not sure actually. In many videos, he offers it things like fish and chicken and wet cat food but that cat doesn't touch them. It does eat some dry kibbles - maybe that's enough? Now that I think about it, calling it "pure vegetarian" was my mistake because it does eat those kibbles which probably contain non-vegetarian nutrients.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by icebraining on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:45AM (#16696749)
Yes, dry kibble certainly contains meat (fish, poultry or even red meat).
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by celticninja on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:41AM (#16696928)
also, unless it is an indoor only cat you cannot determine what it actually eats.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by semi-extrinsic on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:24AM (#16696057)
Probably eats mice/birds/etc. or the food of other cats when the owner isn't looking.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by LarryL on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:32AM (#16696894)
I've been told that the cats of a great-grandparent were only fed pastas...

I've always wondered how they could survive on that! But I suspect that since those cats lived mostly outside, they probably ate many other things, including small animals they caught in gardens, sheds, etc.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by tomcooks on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:07AM (#16697365)
Can confirm, in rural southern Europe cats were (and still are were I live ATM) fed scraps and leftovers (if any); if they don't like that the fields outside are an excellent training ground for their primal instincts
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by cimmanom on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:19AM (#16696660)
And it's not just that cats have to eat meat to get nutrients they need. Their systems aren't able to process significant amounts of carbohydrates at all. A cat consuming more than a couple grams of carbs per day will develop kidney disease extremely quickly.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @02:51PM (#16700609)
That seems too low a threshold - lots of cheap cat food (esp. chow/kibble) has much higher levels of carbs, and while I am sure they aren't great for cats, there also doesn't seem to be an epidemic of feline kidney failure...
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by cimmanom on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:09PM (#16702909)
Actually, there is. It's among the most common causes of death for domestic cats ([1] says the second most common). It's been what killed most of the cats I've ever known (notable exceptions being two that got hit by cars and the one who, no kidding, died of mercury poisoning after being fed nothing but canned tuna her entire life).

[1] http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2015/03/longevity-causes-of-death-i...

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:35AM (#16696096)
It seems plausible that those nutrients might be found in certain plants, and could be identified and concentrated. I wouldn't risk it with my cats, but plenty of people do feed their cats veggie kibble and I haven't heard of them dying of malnutrition in droves.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by ben_w on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:07AM (#16696207)
IIRC the nutrient that makes cats obligate carnivores is taurine. Although it can be found in seaweed, or synthesised in a lab, cats and water makes me think this is unlikely in nature. (That said, human edible != cat edible, don’t just feed seaweed to your cat without asking an expert).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28849526/

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by TeMPOraL on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:30AM (#16696300)
> IIRC the nutrient that makes cats obligate carnivores is taurine.

> That said, human edible != cat edible, don’t just feed seaweed to your cat without asking an expert

Or energy drinks.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by 220V_USKettle on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @06:09AM (#16696619)
My cat refuses to drink Monster, but insists on Red Bull Blueberry.

They are finicky creatures.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by ben_w on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @05:29AM (#16696495)
Stimulants — or drugs in general, legal or not — should definitely not be assumed safe on a different species.

(Also: not all energy drinks are vegetarian, so wouldn’t always solve the diet puzzle even if you confirmed it as safe).

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by xg15 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @08:10AM (#16697057)
I think you can "generalize" in the way that members of the species are in principle capable of such things, not that they'll necessarily do it.

Also I think the idea of animals having "personalities" is itself still contested, so additional observations that support it may help.

I think it's like the incident with the crow Betty. It didn't show that all new-caledonian crows were super smart, but it showed that they are in principle capable of deliberate, creative problem-solving and are able to employ it if circumstances align just right.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by tree_of_item on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:48AM (#16697567)
I don't believe for a second that there was ever a "vegetarian" cat anywhere on this Earth. Cats simply need to eat meat, period.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by HankB99 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @02:59PM (#16700697)
Our kids have a corgi that eats corn cobs (leftovers when we have corn on the cob.) I guess he sees the horses eating them and is convinced they must be good. Perhaps it is an acquired taste.

He once got into serious trouble by eating some medicated grain intended for the horses.

He still eats regular dog food too.

I think the elephant is just picking up something dusty. Maybe there's salt in it.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by paulie_a on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @08:12AM (#16697065)
> vegetarian cat

Aka animal abuse

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lovelearning on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:47AM (#16698646)
Given the context of his life and the views he expresses about animals in his vlogs, I strongly disagree.

> The man takes in rescue dogs, cats, monkeys and (in the past) even a handicapped illtreated tiger. He has some 40-50 pets in his home. There's even a video where he rescues a rat from being eaten by one of his cats, and releases it outside.

> He has offered that cat multiple varieties of cat food and meat in many videos. He himself has expressed concern that it's not eating the proteins it needs. If an animal refuses to eat food that is otherwise good quality and relished by all its friends, how can it be animal abuse?

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by tomcooks on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:11AM (#16697381)
If you read comments you'll notice the cat is one of a group of non vegetarians, and is offered alternatives which it refused. On top of that the cat might also catch mice, lizards or birds while the owner is away.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by nugi on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:23AM (#16697849)
Still animal abuse to deliberately malnurish your pets. Don't excuse abuse for ego reasons.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lovelearning on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:50AM (#16698682)
There is no deliberate malnourishment. Repeating the comment I wrote above...

Given the context of his life and the views he expresses about animals in his vlogs, I strongly disagree.

> The man takes in rescue dogs, cats, monkeys and (in the past) even a handicapped illtreated tiger. He has some 40-50 pets in his home. There's even a video where he rescues a rat from being eaten by one of his cats, and releases it outside.

> He has offered that cat multiple varieties of cat food and meat in many videos. He himself has expressed concern that it's not eating the proteins it needs. If an animal refuses to eat food that is otherwise good quality and relished by all its friends, how can it be animal abuse?

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by tomcooks on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:30AM (#16697919)
I couldn't care less about cats or vegetarianism, so no worries my friend the excuse is in your reality exclusively
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by threepipeproblm on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @08:33AM (#16697176)
"Having a vegetarian cat," also known as animal abuse.

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/nutrition-greats/...

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by kerkeslager on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:18AM (#16697416)
Maybe gather some context before making accusations?

The cat in question seems to choose a vegetarian diet despite the caretaker giving it non-vegetarian food, and is likely hunting for meat when the caretaker isn't watching.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by threepipeproblm on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @09:37AM (#16697510)
Yes I read that above. Cats require a diet consisting almost entirely of animal protein and their livers cannot process the toxins in plant foods. This is still abusive behavior. Sorry if it feels bad to realize you have supported this, but you should stop... the science is clear.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by kerkeslager on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:20AM (#16697818)
Thanks for your concern, but I feel quite okay with everything I've said on this topic.

If you think force-feeding meat to an animal that doesn't want it is less abusive than letting them get meat by hunting if they want to, you're welcome to that very strange opinion.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by threepipeproblm on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:27AM (#16698404)
I'm sorry, but describing the diet that scientists literally describe as "obligate" for cats as somehow being forced on them requires mental gymnastics I can't quite comprehend.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by dllthomas on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @03:04PM (#16700751)
It's been stated elsewhere that the cat is provided with meat and does not eat it. The difference between that and making the cat eat it is quite reasonably described as "forced".

That said, it seems to be noted elsewhere the cat eats presumably-non-vegetarian kibble.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by techdreamer on Friday March 30, 2018 @10:40AM (#16716448)
Agreed. That's what is keeping it alive most likely. Those who are unfamiliar with obligate carnivore status of cats should do a search for "feline hepatic lipidosis" which is a horror story. Also search for lists of plants that are fatal to cats.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lukeschlather on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:19AM (#16697809)
Do you have a link to a study that supports your assertion? I find it difficult to believe that plant foods are universally toxic to cats. In fact that sounds like it can't possibly be true or scientifically verified.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by nugi on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:24AM (#16697858)
Seriously too lazy to wikipedia 'cat' and depend on your biases?
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by kerkeslager on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:31AM (#16697934)
Again, maybe gather context before making accusations?

The assertion is that a cat which chooses vegetarian cat food is probably fine because it's getting the necessary nutrients from hunting while the caretaker isn't watching. Could you quote anything from the Wikipedia page which refutes this assertion?

Linked for your convenience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat#Nutrition

I'm guessing you don't actually intend to propose force-feeding meat to a cat that doesn't want it, but in context that's what you're arguing for.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lukeschlather on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:03AM (#16698200)
Wikipedia says that cats have more difficulty digesting plant foods than meat. But that's still a pretty broad generalization and I'm not convinced that there's enough research to make a categorical claim like that, though I'm sure it's true of some plants (I also see some articles saying it's true for some meats.)
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by threepipeproblm on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:07AM (#16698239)
It depends on what you mean by toxic, but most healthy animal foods contain basically zero antinutrients or toxins. (There may be a small amount environmental toxins.) Thus animals whose diets consist almost exclusively of prey do not evolve livers that are good at filtering out toxins.

While I don't mean to imply that all plants are going to be like poisons to cats at any dose, almost all plants do contain antinutrients, which can be potentially toxic at some dose to an obligate carnivore.

Most of the toxin load in omnivorous diets, including the typical human diet, comes from stuff plants produce naturally. This makes a lot of evolutionary sense; chemical defenses are the only ones plants have and there is usually a subtle mix of nutrients and antinutrients even in popular domesticated foods. Apple seeds contains cyanide. Wheat contains lectins and phytates that block mineral absorption. In India's largest chickpea producing region they have to put a price floor on chickpeas, otherwise poor people will eat enough of them to die. I am not exaggerating when I say that basically all plant foods contain antinutrients, and like anything it's the doses that makes the poison.

(Another subtlety is there are few pure antinutrients. I mentioned phytates, which can cause mineral deficiencies in humans at high enough doses. But phytates may also be protective against cancer. This doesn't change the basic argument I'm making about whether cats are designed to filter out all the chemical warfare that plants unleash, in significant doses.)

This is basic stuff, although contrary to many people's uninformed opinion. Feeding a bunch of plants to a predator is dangerous in the short term and abusive over the long term. I'm sorry I don't have any specific links for cats and liver toxicity specifically, but in general you can look to "The Killer Salad", which is a chapter in one of Michael Pollan's books, or to the writings of Paul Jaminet if you want to verify what I am saying bout the majority of toxins in mixed diets coming from plant foods.

Here are a couple of cat specific links that only mention the liver/toxin issue in passing, they look at the issue more broadly: https://animalwellnessmagazine.com/cats-cant-vegetarian/ http://messybeast.com/veggiecat.htm

If you google for example foods and plants that are considered safe for dogs to eat -- and then compare to cats -- you'll find the list of stuff that's safe for dogs is dramatically longer. Same thing for essential oils, many of them can be very damaging to cats in small doses. It's because of what I have explained above.. predator animals are not evolved to filter out stuff the way others are... they are designed to eat animals who have livers evolved to do the filtering for them. There are plants described as "safe" for cats to eat and you will occasionally see a cat eat small doses of random plants. They are talking about occasional consumption. But making any plant the staple of a cat's diet is cruel. Imposing ideology onto nature requires ignoring a lot of evidence.

The burden of proof should be on those who advocate feeding an animal something far different to its evolved diet. Still, there is lots of evidence that cats do poorly the more their diet gets away from not just animal foods but raw animal foods... I cited a well known study that's quite old above, but I'm absolutely sure you can find more evidence on this, if you care to.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by nasredin on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:10AM (#16696224)
"pet cat"

And the other type being a stray cat?

Confused about the term. Not a cat person myself.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by alex_hitchins on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @04:50AM (#16696368)
I made the automatic assumption the poster meant a cat that was well domiciled and enjoyed human contact. Come cats that are pets exist in a more co-living agreement, where you just agree to live alongside them and you keep your lives separate. Very much a cat person myself.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by pc86 on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @08:01AM (#16697017)
What exactly is confusing about the term "pet cat?" It's a cat. It's the man's pet.
Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by hfdgiutdryg on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @10:18AM (#16697806)
"he has a pet bird" "she has a pet squirrel"

There's nothing wrong with "pet X", you're just used to dogs and cats being pets by default.

Re:Elephant 'smoking' footage baffles experts by lepton on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @07:03AM (#16696801)
Barn cats, mousers