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Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bowmessage on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:43PM (#16641594)
"... we immediately banned Kogan's app from our platform, and demanded that Kogan and Cambridge Analytica formally certify that they had deleted all improperly acquired data. They provided these certifications."

How is it at all possible to certify that data has been deleted and no copies were taken..?

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by itp on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:49PM (#16641668)
This feels strange to those of us from technical spheres, but much of the world works without formal verification of facts. There are in theory severe penalties, both implicit and explicit, that ostensibly act as deterrent to bad actors.

This is usually only noteworthy when it fails, but by and large it works. The friction involved if we did not generally accept someone's (signed, notarized, appropriately formalized) word as bond would cause our world to grind to a halt.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by CobrastanJorji on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:55PM (#16642796)
Notarization is another great example of "the real world is strange to technical folks." There are a thousand reasons that notarization is a terrible process. There are minimal requirements to be a notary. Notaries have predictable seals. Ordering a fake notary stamp is pretty easy. There's no technical deterrent to backdating requests. Notaries are frequently employed by the people they're notarizing for. Notaries are not trained to recognize fake IDs.

Even the flimsiest of technological improvements could radically improve the trustworthiness of the notarizations, but by and large the system works, so there's not much of a reason to fix it yet.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:54PM (#16641725)
> This feels strange to those of us from technical spheres, but much of the world works without formal verification of facts.

Including many technical spheres, and particularly including the vast majority of the software world; formal verification exists in software, of course, but is most notable in not being used for most of it. Yet, even without that, there's usually a release process that includes the moral equivalent of a certification—without formal verification or certain knowledge—that the software does what it is supposed to.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by lisper on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:00PM (#16641773)
This predisposition to believe our fellow humans is actually hard-coded into our genes. This is one of the reasons it's so easy to spread fake news. The ability to lie to someone without direct consequences to yourself (because, for example, you are thousands of miles away) was not part of our ancestral environment, but it is part of our contemporary one, and some of us are exploiting this newly created ecological niche.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by TangoTrotFox on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:52PM (#16642283)
I'm going to have request a source here, because this doesn't make much sense. We've spent very nearly all of our evolutionary time pillaging, raping, and murdering each other - not exactly singing kumbaya. There's tribal instinctual stuff that would include 'in-group' trust, but that's something far and away from trusting a person because they're a person as you're implying.

'Fake news' takes advantage of something much more simple. People believe what they want to believe. In other words the people led on by fake news tend to already want to believe what the news is about. When we see something that confirms our biases, many of us don't question it. And this is made even worse since people tend to work as apologists for fake news from sources they like, so instead of being able to discuss the issue of fake news - it ends up dividing people into splits on the 'fake' topic at hand, which in contemporary times is most often political.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by lisper on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:41PM (#16643570)
> There's tribal instinctual stuff

Well, yeah, that's what I was referring to. If you perceive someone as being from your tribe then you are predisposed to believe what they say, and if you don't then you aren't. Nowadays tribes are much bigger than they used to be, and tend to center around ideologies more than geography. But otherwise it's monkeysphere dynamics at work.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by drchiu on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:01PM (#16641783)
Yup. Exactly. The tax system in many parts of the world works on an honor system. We all, as a society, rely on the idea that most of us are honest, good people. There is no way to audit everyone.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by ENOTTY on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:28PM (#16642052)
Could smart contracts (maybe in addition to a Trusted Execution Environment) be used to enforce these sorts of guarantees?
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by beefield on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:26PM (#16642574)
I'm slightly irritated that there seems not to be a single problem currently that someone would not be proposing cryptocurrency as a solution.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by izzygomez on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:40PM (#16643100)
To be fair to the previous commenter, they did not explicitly propose cryptocurrency as a solution; they're just asking a question. Also, cryptocurrency != blockchain technology.

That said, I do agree with your sentiment that the blockchain-as-a-solution space is getting a bit ridiculous. I can't imagine a way to translate this problem into a smart-contract-solvable form.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by mFixman on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:37PM (#16642136)
How would you enforce a smart contract guaranteeing that data was deleted and not copied?
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by TangoTrotFox on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:38PM (#16642159)
This begins and ends with the fact that if you can see something, you can record it. The only way to prevent this is through on-site access only with a thorough physical search and no electrical devices allowed.

You can do some clever things to figure out who it is that leaks stuff, but that's another issue.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:47PM (#16641650)
> How is it at all possible to certify that data has been deleted and no copies were taken..?

By, e.g., signing a paper which says that.

You probably meant how can you know that, which is a different issue than how can you certify it, and which amounts to a question of degree of internal accountability and control of data access.

Certification is about assuming responsibility for the truth of the thing certified, which doesn't actually require knowing it (though obviously knowing it to a reasonable degree of certainty makes it more comfortable to certify it.)

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by product50 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:48PM (#16641653)
Fwiw, Cambridge Analytica still maintains that they don't have any copy of FB data and are open to do a forensic test by a FB appointed team.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by wavefunction on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:34PM (#16642629)
Given their CEO's bragging about extortion, blackmail and prostitution/pandering I'd give their assurances almost no value at all.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by product50 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @08:27PM (#16644088)
Hopefully the tests will prove that clearly.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by anonnel on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:18PM (#16643380)
A “forensic test” to check that they didn’t copy and hang on to some data in 2013 ... well I’m reassured.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by product50 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @08:26PM (#16644084)
Do you have a better idea? Be productive with your comments vs. just being a hater.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by anonnel on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:03PM (#16644436)
They are well aware there is no way to assure they haven’t copied data 5 years ago. Pointing that out with rightful indigence is not “being a hater”. (which isn’t a trope that belongs in reasonable conversation)
[dead]
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by anonnel on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:34AM (#16646848)
On this forum you are sorrounded by people with backgrounds in data storage and networking. Any one of them will tell you there can be no reliable “forensic” assurance the data was not copied somewhere by any number of methods, even for a recent timeframe, let alone 5 years ago. It’s a ridiculous idea on its face.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by product50 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:23PM (#16653997)
So you yourself have no expertise but are still going ahead with making an assertion and your bet is that if you are wrong others will pile in.

At least try to be reasonable.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by anonnel on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:28PM (#16661169)
no, myself included.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by threebody on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:47PM (#16641645)
The definition of certify here is to "attest or confirm in a formal statement." So, Cambridge Analytica could be sued if they lied in such a statement.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by chubasco on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:18PM (#16641956)
This may be possible, however it is going to be interesting to see how Facebook gets standing to sue CA. From what I understood from Zuckerberg's statement, the agreement was between Facebook and Kogan. If CA got the data from Kogan, it seems like Facebook wouldn't have standing to go after CA directly. I haven't seen the specific agreements made by each party in this case, so I can't say for sure, but traditionally I think Facebook could only go after Kogan, who then may be able to go after CA depending on the specifics of their agreement.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by tantalor on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:34PM (#16642110)
> Facebook wouldn't have standing to go after CA directly

Seems to be plain copyright infringement... FB licensed the data to Kogan, not CA, hence CA violates FB's copyright on the data.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by vermontdevil on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:14PM (#16641922)
Even if CA deleted their data, what about all the other data that has been taken out as per this [1]?

All our data associated with FB unique id is out there. My understanding this has stopped in 2015 but for sure?

Hopefully the data that is out there becomes less relevant over time.

[1] https://medium.com/@jamesallworth/what-the-f-was-facebook-th...

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by shostack on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:12PM (#16642917)
And just wait till it is joined up with the Equifax data and the Spectrum Health data. Fun times ahead for sure!
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by oh_sigh on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:19PM (#16641968)
Along those lines, how is it possible for Facebook to demand that CA deleted the data, when CA is a third party and never had any kind of agreement with facebook(at least, relating to the information Kogan shared)?

If someone leaks facebook data to a journalist, can FB demand that they delete it as well?

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by astrange on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:55PM (#16642807)
CA is a major customer of Facebook whose work has no free press implications. They can ask them to do whatever they want.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by nuclear_eclipse on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:49PM (#16642258)
Anyone can "demand" anything they want; many times it's up to the recipient to decide whether or not they comply with said demands.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by jd20 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:52PM (#16642282)
I think it's the very fact that they cannot truly verify, which is why Facebook is so willing to go through the motions. In reality, they know many developers will not comply, but they can claim they did everything humanly possible before a grand jury.

It costs Facebook nothing to ask developers to sign a contract written on virtual paper, yet can be used as a defense to cover their butt further down the line.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bluetwo on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:48PM (#16641656)
It's called "manufactured credibility" and it's about as worthless as the paper it is written on.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by xkjkls on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:48PM (#16642253)
It's as credible as any other legal agreement we have in our society.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bluetwo on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:21PM (#16642970)
Not exactly true. Many things that are important are audited or inspected, not simply signed off on.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by xkjkls on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:37PM (#16643067)
True, but audits aren't necessarily guarantees of anything either, and also rely on a certain amount of trust and disclosure that those being auditing aren't actively trying to game the audit.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by bluetwo on Sunday March 25, 2018 @04:24PM (#16674377)
It's how society monitors things it cares about.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by netsharc on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:55PM (#16653075)
"Yes I am over 18".
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by philippnagel on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:45PM (#16641613)
"formally". Technically you cannot.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by ProAm on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:44PM (#16641601)
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by dang on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:56PM (#16641741)
Please don't; that just leads to the same discussion over and over, which makes it off topic for HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16616988).

There's tons of substance to be discussed here without reaching for the global hash table (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9722096). Fortunately the community has mostly been doing that, but let's not spoil it.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by ProAm on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:04PM (#16641812)
@dang - Normally I agree with you, but I do feel in this instance, especially in regards to him trusting (or once trusting) a third party with his data that the quote is appropriate. It wasn't a troll comment to any HN'er but more of an observation of the pot calling the kettle black. Zuckerberg is absolutely 'trusting' that CA has deleted the data that they gained from FB. While it may be often brought up on HN, its one of Zuckerberg more profound quotes (especially in regards to privacy of information) and speaks to how he sees the world, the difference now is he's on the other side of the coin and we are getting to watch him deal with it.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by dang on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @06:08PM (#16642891)
You've made a better case for it than I'd imagined! But is it necessary? IMO the damage of internet shame-memeing is larger than the local benefit.

The point isn't to defend Zuckerberg, btw; it's to defend the quality of this community. If we're to realize our dreams of doing marginally better than internet median, we need people to check their worst instincts here.

Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by isoprophlex on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:45PM (#16641615)
Like we should trust him.
Re:Zuckerberg on Cambridge Analytica situation by archerface on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:50PM (#16641678)
On that note, saw this on Reddit this morning: https://www.reddit.com/r/quotes/comments/8605g9/people_just_...