News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by stupidcar on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:56AM (#16637986)
Holy shit. That is way, WAY crazier than a non-compete. That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. Even if you go and work for a non-competing company in a completely different field, and invent something totally unrelated to your ex-employer's business, then it supposedly belongs to your ex-employer. Since no new employer could accept that situation, it essentially prevents you from working.

I'm sure that can't be enforceable at all, but it's still completely sickening that a company would put something like that in its terms.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by biztos on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:45AM (#16638420)
In Germany that clause would mean they'd have to pay you your full salary for as long as they prevented you from working for someone else. So it'd be a one-year vacation whenever your employment ended, but probably not much use for your career.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by derriz on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:00AM (#16638566)
Same in Switzerland. If they don't want you working for someone else, they have to keep paying you.

The only "non-compete" clauses that are even theoretically binding apply to stealing clients andn customers and the like so generally only apply to sales people.

This doesn't stop companies trying to include ridiculous non-compete clauses in employment contracts. It's sort of a silly pretence - both sides know it's not binding so the employer makes it sound as harsh as possible but the employee signs anyway.

At the end of your employment (whether fired or you walk), if they really want you to not complete, they have to offer you money - generally fully salary for the desired period of time regardless of what your contract states.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Buttons840 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:17AM (#16638746)
That's a year I could spend doing SICP exercises and learning to program in brainfuck. Of course, I would happily turn these projects over to the company and do so with an air of personal superiority regarding my work. And also pick up my paycheck.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by amelius on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:03PM (#16639325)
That sounds very reasonable. And to take it a step further, if they want possession of ideas you have in your spare time, then they should pay for your spare time too! :)
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jdbernard on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:27PM (#16639641)
Well, that's the basic idea behind being salaried. Theoretically you are not being paid for 40-hours a week, you're being paid for your productive output regardless of the time.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by amelius on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:48PM (#16640593)
What if you work part-time? And spend your spare time on a side-project? Will they pay for it?
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Diederich on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:59AM (#16638553)
That's pretty interesting.

Do you think someone in Germany under such an agreement could work for another company that had no presence in Germany or, perhaps, the EU?

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Zeitgeschehen on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:35AM (#16638962)
That would be fine because that someone would not be a competitor of the company. Although you have to consider that if you earn money while being paid through such an agreement your earnings are partly deducted from them. So if you find a job which pays the same as before, your old company will only need to pay until your income reaches 110%(125% if you moved for your new job) of your old income. You are also not allowed to "maliciously refrain" from working in that time. (But that is interpreted quite lax for the employee)
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by hinkley on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:14AM (#16638700)
Spend the year taking classes, learning new programming languages and tools. There are ways to make it work for you.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by dbbk on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:18AM (#16638149)
I would just return this back to them and ask, "why?"
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by joezydeco on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:35AM (#16638960)
Regretfully the negotiations didn't get far enough to get to this point, although I told them I would have to discuss things with a lawyer if they wanted it signed. Then we would have at least had a "why" to go with it.

Thankfully the deal fell apart for other reasons, although I shouldn't have been surprised by any of it.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by athenot on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:20AM (#16638166)
In some states, it's not enforceable unless there's a monetary compensation that goes along with it.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ilovecars2 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:39AM (#16638355)
In Europe a lot of these non competes are unenforceable. I work for a U.S startup in the U.K. (British citizen) some of the clauses in our contract are just flat out illegal. It’s also 26 pages long, which is almost unheard of in the U.K. I asked about it and it turns out it was written at a U.S law firm.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by maccard on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:01AM (#16638578)
To me at least, it doesn't matter if it's enforceable or not. I don't want to go through the hassle of fighting it in court, dealing with lawyers, when I could avoid it by going elsewhere. Obviously I'm lucky to be able to do that, and if I was under pressure for a new job it would be a different story.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by coldacid on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:09PM (#16640815)
I would expect 26 pages is unheard of even in the USA.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by blattimwind on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:59AM (#16638556)
26 pages? That's just ridiculous.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by koolba on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:39AM (#16638356)
Wouldn't your salary during the employment term be that consideration?

Consideration need not be during the same period. I can pay you $X today for something that covers the next N years.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Bartweiss on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:34PM (#16639733)
As I understand the state laws - not if it's not stated as such. They don't allow it to be implicit in "you get salary X each year and operate under noncompete Y". A restriction on future work like that would require explicit compensation.

(And as for why people don't just add "compensated via your salary" to the boilerplate - that's an open-ended transaction, not a defined amount of compensation for the year of noncompete restriction.)

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by btrettel on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:44PM (#16642213)
Which states?
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jrs235 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:34AM (#16638948)
>That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer.

But it's not. Inventions != copyright or code produced. If I author a book after employment they don't own the rights to my book. If I write code after employment they don't necessarily own my code or rights to it.

Yes. This is WAY CRAZY because enforceable or not it abuses the information and resource availability asymmetry between company and employee.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by function_seven on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:40AM (#16639034)
It's not just inventions, though. The phrase is:

    invention, discovery or item of intellectual property
The "item of intellectual property" would cover copyrighted material, right?

Seems way unenforceable to me, but IANAL.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jrs235 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:03PM (#16639332)
>The "item of intellectual property" would cover copyrighted material, right?

Very much possible, but as someone else alluded to, this clause is incomplete without the rest of the agreement. Somewhere in the agreement "intellectual property" may be defined [better] and it may include copyright, and it might include terms that narrow down what copyright falls within their definition of "intellectual property" (i.e. copyright-able works which pertain to the business of the company). They don't want to own everything... what if I write software for a personal pet project and it causes damages... they would open up themselves to potential liability (unless they cover that, again, somewhere else in the agreement). The entire agreement text is needed for clarity and to make conclusions.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by robotresearcher on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:42AM (#16639052)
The agreement explicitly says "or item of intellectual property". It's absurd.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by robocat on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:46PM (#16640573)
I wonder if you could create a toxic legal liability by assigning an IP right to the company. E.g. create a trademark about bestiality or pornography, and assign it to the company. Or file a toxic patent (it doesn't need a lawyer). Obvious difficulty to find something you can publish while avoiding legal liability yourself...
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jrs235 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:04PM (#16639349)
*The CLAUSE explicitly says "or item of intellectual property".

We can't conclude what the agreement means by "intellectual property". See comment to sister reply. We need the entire agreement text to make conclusions.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by isostatic on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:41AM (#16638366)
I can see why they've done it -- stop you from inventing something at work, knowing you can't sell it immediately, so leaving and selling it after you've left.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Bartweiss on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:35PM (#16639753)
But the presumption clause is absolutely insane. Even if you can prove something was done after you left the company, they're still considered the owner.

Imagine someone quit that job today, 6 months later room temperature superconductors were invented, and 2 months after that the ex-employee invented a great new use for them. It's literally impossible that the invention was made at the job, but the contract still appears to claim it.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by isostatic on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:08PM (#16640802)
I didn't say I agreed it (I don't), just suggesting why the firm things their clause may be reasonable.