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Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by tomohawk on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:38AM (#16637865)
I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them.

In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have to sign it, or even comment or push back on it. You can just ignore it.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by lmkg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:14AM (#16638124)
(IANAL)

Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms.

A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential.

By pocketing the contract rather than pointing it out to them, you've arguably violated the "meeting of the minds." The company was under the impression that was part of the agreement. You can dither about "due diligence" and say it was there responsibility to check, but in some cases that can be seen as an intentional misrepresentation on your part, for which there are consequences.

I will concede that this is unlikely to come back to bite you in practice. But others should be aware that it is technically playing with fire. And personally, I consider it unethical.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by boomlinde on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:41AM (#16639041)
If the employer wants the NDA to be part of the agreement, they should include it in the conditions of the employment contract.

If they offer me a separate contract to sign for their non-disclosure terms and I agree neither verbally nor in ink, I think it's a stretch to call it a misrepresentation of my position. Given that this type of contract usually offers absolutely nothing in exchange, it would be more reasonable to assume that I don't agree, if I don't sign it or express agreement otherwise.

Also IANAL, but at the very least I don't think that this is unethical.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Bartweiss on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:50PM (#16639933)
In every case I've heard of where someone was pressed for misrepresentation, it was for actively misleading the other party.

Verbally agreeing to the NDA then not signing might count. Signing a fake name would obviously count. Editing a digital contract before signing might count, and not highlighting the edits in a "track changes" negotiation would probably count. If you returned the papers and said "these are all set" or something, I guess you might be at risk.

But just... not signing a thing? If someone puts it in front of you without negotiating or asking for consent, then accepts it back unsigned? I've never heard of a lawsuit arguing anything even close to "I handed him a paper, so he should have spoken up to tell me he wasn't signing it", and I can't imagine it'd go anywhere.

(On which note, every NDA I've seen has been explicitly brought up to ensure that I was ok with it. But I guess that's not universal?)

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by rhacker on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:50AM (#16638456)
Oh no this is not true - if they can't find the signed paper work it is Absolutely on them. I've been square in this situation before - the company's legal "person" is absolutely in charge and responsible for collecting whatever signatures they want and which ones are optional and required. I absolutely disagree with this post.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by checkyoursudo on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:02AM (#16638589)
I would also generally agree with this.

I had a client once who worked for a company for a few years, then did not for a few years, and then did again for three decades. The company terminated this person. The company found out this person had had a side business for more than a decade in the same industry. My client had signed an IP assignment during the first tenure, which lapsed at termination, and then never signed a new one.

The company tried to take all of my client's IP. They failed for lack of execution.

(I did not represent this client on the IP/non-compete/employment stuff; I did NDAs/licensing for the side business. But I have first-hand knowledge of this.)

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by checkyoursudo on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:53AM (#16638486)
(IAAL)

Just for clarity's sake:

Some kinds of contracts definitely do require signatures to be executed and others don't. If it's important to you, then make sure you know which kind of execution yours requires.

I have read cases where employment agreements are void for lack of signatures. But, I am not an employment lawyer, and every jurisdiction is potentially different.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by d0lph on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:20PM (#16639552)
Could you be more specific? I am curious. Did not realize contracts could be implicitly signed.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by checkyoursudo on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:38PM (#16639782)
Implicitly signed? Like verbal assent? Yes, some kinds of contracts do only require verbal assent of the parties in order to be executed.

More specific about what? I can try.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by d0lph on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:58PM (#16640697)
Like what scenarios would a signature not be required, it is my understanding verbal contracts are enforceable. But can you give verbal assent to a written contract?
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by checkyoursudo on Thursday March 22, 2018 @01:41PM (#16650839)
In absolute numbers, there are probably more contracts executed every day that must be in writing, but there are probably more types of contracts that simply do not require writing.

In any of these types of contracts that do not require writing, you can write your terms down on paper (or memorialize them in any way you agree upon; email, napkins, etc) and still verbally execute the agreement. The writing will then become evidence of the verbal agreement.

For any specific type of contract, you will want to consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction. There is just too much variability to account for.

If your question is, "If someone gives me this written contract, and I don't sign it, but I say, 'yes, I'll do this' -- can this contract be enforced against me even if I didn't mean it and didn't sign it?"

The answer to that could very well be: Yes, you're on the hook. So don't say yes unless you mean it.

Don't ever say yes just to get out of a situation. Say, "I need to think about this for a couple of days." And if they push you, then say you're really sorry but you can't agree without thinking about it.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by bluGill on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:01AM (#16638569)
When you get a job offer and do not have a current job you are automatically signing everything under duress. You don't get to eat unless you sign that, therefore you signed it.

Such arguments tend to hold weight in court.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ben509 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:06PM (#16640124)
I'd love to see just one case where someone flew that line past a judge.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ben509 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:14PM (#16640221)
> (IANAL)

That reminds me, I am going to add some of these points to "questions for my employment attorney" for next time I change jobs. It's not very expensive to purchase an hour of an attorney's time and they can answer a bunch of questions like these.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ethbro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:25AM (#16638206)
Unethical?

It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by lmkg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:41AM (#16638375)
I agree that many companies behave unethically during negotiations with their employees.

I disagree that excuses unethical behavior on the part of the employees.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ethbro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:47AM (#16638437)
So you feel it's just for employees to hold themselves to higher ethical standards than their employer? To their own financial detriment?

I'm being pointed here, but I feel that's a fair representation of what we're talking about.

Specifically for all but the most specific competitor-worded non-competes, the company knows exactly what it's doing: retaining employees through a cheaper method than compensation.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by lmkg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:57PM (#16640679)
First, I think the ethical standards one holds oneself to should be independent of who you're interacting with. Lying to a saint is the same as lying to a sinner. (I think lying is justifiable in many cases, but "lying to a bad person" is not a blanket justification.) If for no other reason, it creates a race-to-the-bottom for acceptable behavior.

Second, in this particular situation there is an above-board alternative, which is to reject the terms in a clearly-communicated fashion. Were there literally only two alternatives which were "lie by omission" and "starve" then this conversation would be different. But I think in the real world, there are more alternatives available. If there are ways of achieving the same ends without deceit, then the use of deceit is unjustified.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ethbro on Thursday March 22, 2018 @01:38AM (#16646047)
I used to think more in the mode of your "First" perspective. Yet the more of the world I see, the more I come to believe that in a majority of important life situations (in the US at least) acting in an unethical manner is a strictly winning strategy (from a game theory perspective, in that it trumps all possible other strategies).

Not that I'm using that as an argument to be an unethical person.

But I am saying I feel it's a justification to act in a more Rooseveltian realpolitik manner: treat someone ethically until they demonstrate a lack of ethics. And even then, strive to conduct oneself to a higher standard, but firstly protect yourself and your aims at all times.

Most unethical behavior seems advantageously predicated on others' ignoring / accepting it. To the contrary, confront it! And win!

To your second point, granted with a caveat. The "freedom to turn down a job" is a freedom many aren't afforded (and I daresay most don't have the benefit of affording at least once in their lives).

Saying "Yes, but we have better, more ethical alternatives" feels elitist and... inapplicable to the average working person.

So yes, while most people commenting here may have that option, there are a huge number that don't. (Hence why non-competes should be ruled unconstitutional)

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by grasshopperpurp on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:31PM (#16639704)
Specifically, what do you find unethical about it?
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by s73v3r_ on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:51PM (#16640624)
I fail to see why not signing an agreement you disagree with is unethical.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by lmkg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:22PM (#16642000)
Disagreeing with terms is not unethical. It's the "pocketing." An explicit rejection of terms is perfectly reasonable. But I think it's deceit to try and hide from the other party that you did not agree to all the terms that were offered.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by nordsieck on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:30AM (#16638250)
> It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees.

You must be unfamiliar with the software development market. In which way do employers have massive market power which renders prospective employees vulnerable?

If anything, it seems like developers have the upper hand (perhaps with the exclusion of game developers).

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ethbro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:42AM (#16638385)
Please don't make assumptions.

Whatever the current market conditions are is irrelevant. They were different 10 years ago, they'll be different in another 10 years.

I was responding to the parent's claim that social engineering around signing non-compete clauses is unethical.

I consider trying to pressure an employee to sign such a clause unethical.

Maybe you feel differently.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by vonmoltke on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:40AM (#16638365)
I am very familiar with the software development market wherein both of my job changes thus far have been multi-year searches. Please do not assume that because it is easy to walk out the door into another job in a select few markets an with a select few skill sets that it is this easy for everyone writing software for a living.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by boomlinde on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:42AM (#16639049)
Yes, employers getting people to sign away everything they do after their employment is definitely a sign of them getting the shorter end of the stick...
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by s73v3r_ on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:52PM (#16640632)
Without a job, you don't eat. That alone is massive market power.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by cdblades on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:54AM (#16638496)
Is there no baseline burden of due diligence that would come into play here? What if you didn't sign any of the packet and just showed up and started working. Surely you can't be held liable for the employer doing absolutely no follow-through?
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by DrScump on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:46PM (#16645536)

  but it's not essential
Some contracts are unenforceable if not in writing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_frauds

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Carioca on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:57AM (#16637988)
I've had an HR person tell me I needed to sign an NDA on the day I quit because it was missing (they forgot to hand me mine the day everyone got theirs). It included minimum damages of one year's salary for ANY breach. I had a lawyer friend write a much nicer and more reasonable version and told them that was the most I would sign. The only reason I even signed anything was to preserve the connections I had made there.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by otterley on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:25AM (#16638202)
It’s pretty typical to be asked to sign an NDA or other restrictive agreements at termination time if you’re getting a severance payment or other benefits that you wouldn’t otherwise get if you were voluntarily leaving the company.

What were the circumstances in which they asked you to sign?

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by fapjacks on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:44PM (#16639849)
This happened to my dad. He was with a company for 25 years, since its founding. He knew everything there is to know about the particular product they made, not only from being there for so long, but from holding a variety of positions while there including fifteen years as operations manager. He never signed an NDA or noncompete or anything like that. The company was bought by an "investment group" which did it's typical cost-cutting stranglehold to cash in on the name before driving the company into the dirt. I tried to convince him he could start his own company, on his own terms, creating those products with the highest quality craftsmanship. He thought about it, but on his last day when the inevitable came, they coupled his severance pay to signing a shitload of these typically overbearing, draconian clauses.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Carioca on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:39PM (#16660614)
I was just getting standard severance mandated by law (here in Brazil), but I was going to a sort-of competitor: both company were incubators.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by paultopia on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:16AM (#16638137)
That was very generous. I'd have laughed in their face in a similar situation.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Sean1708 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:33AM (#16638281)
No point burning bridges if you don't have to, you never know when a connection could come in handy.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by PurpleBoxDragon on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:39AM (#16638354)
That's why you say no in a professional way. But I would still say no. If professionally saying no to such an unreasonable request burns a bridge, then it isn't just a bridge you shouldn't miss, it is a bridge that is better burned.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ben509 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:10PM (#16640167)
They're also kind of burning bridges. "Hey, remember our company? When you left we demanded you sign something that threatened you with damages!"
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by s73v3r_ on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:54PM (#16640649)
Burning bridges with who? The HR Drone?
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by paulie_a on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:59AM (#16638552)
Connections aside, if they weren't offering substantial benefits after you left why even bother to sign anything?

They want one year in damages for breaching the contract? They can pay for 1 year of salary.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Carioca on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:44PM (#16660665)
None, it was really just the connections.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by raarts on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:32AM (#16638272)
Be very careful with this.

I have run into trouble because of exactly this. There was a conflict in payment, I left. Their lawyer argued that even though the agreement was not signed, I had acted as if it had been (by not objecting and continuing the employment), so it was still valid.

I ended up settling, so losing money.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by sillyquiet on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:43AM (#16637884)
I mean, I get that approach, but tbh I would rather hash that out with a company before I get hired rather than 4 months down the road when some HR person notices the paperwork is incomplete.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by tomohawk on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:46AM (#16637906)
By that point, the paperwork is complete. The hiring completes the transaction as being satisfactory to both sides.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by treis on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:19AM (#16638161)
That's not generally how it works. Modifying a contract without being clear that you are making a counter offer isn't going to hold up in court. They are going to see the company's offer, your acceptance, and then hold you to the original company offer.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ethbro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:29AM (#16638245)
Fwiw, I'd say at least half of the clauses I've been asked to sign were not included at contract time, but rather at post-contract "do HR paperwork" time.

So I don't see how that could be construed to be 'part of the original offer'.

Especially if you asked (in writing) if such a clause existed and received a negative / no response before signing the contract.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by mseebach on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:51AM (#16637943)
Depends. There could be a reference in the main contract listing execution of the non-compete as a condition of the validity of the contract.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Vinnl on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:00AM (#16638012)
I'd still prefer to have issues resolved before I start employment somewhere, rather than having to deal with it when you're already at work and walking away is a bigger step.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by emodendroket on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:40AM (#16638361)
For the vast majority of workers the company has the right at any time to introduce a new contract and require you to sign it as a condition of continued employment.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by crusso on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:52AM (#16637962)
Kind of an interesting approach to it, I guess. I wonder how far you could take such a thing.

   * Could you initial every page but remove any pages you didn't like from a single contract?
   * Could you insert your own subtly edited version of their non-compete that you signed?
I'm wondering where the legal line is between the employer's need to do due diligence and the expectation that the employee isn't doing something to trick the employer into thinking that everyone agrees to the employment arrangement.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by lightbyte on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:58AM (#16637995)
Sounds like this [1] case where a man received a credit card offer in the mail, re-wrote some terms and sent it back, and the bank accepted it without reading it. He did win the initial lawsuit from the bank.

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowin...

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by meuk on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:32AM (#16638268)
I really respect that guy. From the linked article:

  "They signed the documents without looking. They said what usually their borrowers say in court: 'We have not read it',” said Mr Mikhalevich.
I am always pissed off at the stuff that companies get away with, just because they often have a dedicated team of lawyers and a big budget for this stuff.

  Oleg Tinkov, founder of the bank, tweeted: "Our lawyers think he is going to get not 24m, but really 4 years in prison for fraud. Now it's a matter of principle for @tcsbanktwitter."
Typical scare tactics, seems like they were trying to scare him into a settlement.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jermaustin1 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:51AM (#16638462)
He technically won a consolation prize (30% cash back debit card) on his counter suit after both parties withdrew their suits[1].

[1]https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/man-who-outwitted-bank-e...

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by asaph on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:04AM (#16638052)
Lately more companies are using digital hiring packets which employees e-sign, making this strategy essentially moot. You're unlikely to sneak under the radar when each field is required.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by taneq on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:51AM (#16637947)
I've done this with a client in the past. They badly needed my help but tried to get me to sign some ridiculous paperwork (basically a noncompete / NDA plus more simply for being on the premises). They handed me the paperwork to fill out, I smiled and nodded, end of story. They asked about it again a few weeks later and I just said I didn't get around to it. Never came up again.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by chrisabrams on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:42AM (#16637883)
In a similar light, there are many places that ask you fill out your social security number among other items on paperwork. 9/10 times they will never ask you to fill in the blanks you left out...
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by ethbro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:32AM (#16638265)
If you leave off your social security number, your employer is presumably going to have difficulty paying taxes / social security / etc to you.

Depending on work relationship (e.g. contract), they may not be doing this anyway. But there are some things they need it for.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Bartweiss on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:59PM (#16640042)
With all the stupid and unjustified uses of SSN, it's sort of funny to see this as the one people are objecting to. Working out Social Security contributions for your paycheck is pretty much the most reasonable use for that number I can think of.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by chrisabrams on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:23PM (#16642010)
I was speaking generally, not specifically employers. I was asked for my SSN to get a mailbox once...
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by s73v3r_ on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:56PM (#16640669)
That's bullshit. There are appropriate tax forms for that information.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by psychobabble on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:05AM (#16665121)
You can amend any contract given to you before signing and dating. Simply cross out the sections you do not approve of and initialize the amended sections. I have done this several times with both contract clients and employers and not yet been met with any opposition, but it always went a bit different each time. Every time I advised the employer or client of the contract amendment, sometimes with no detail, sometimes with reasons why. Only once did the customer sign and give me a copy of the amended contract, while in his presence at the office, no questions. All other times the employer or client never sent me a co-signed copy of the contract, but things went forward and I was paid.

As others here have already suggested, I would agree that not signing the given contract and just going forward is not the right approach if you truly want to avoid the non-compete trap. Instead, amend the contract (or have a new contract drafted, as also mentioned earlier) and return it signed; it shows both your commitment to the work, and your attention to detail. The ball is then in their court. YOU now possess an amended, signed and dated copy of THEIR contract, returned to them along with an advisory of amendment.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by inetknght on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:46AM (#16637908)
Now if only I could do that with software-enforced EULAs.

You know, the things that nobody reads but generally sign away all your rights.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jonathanstrange on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:58AM (#16637996)
In theory you can (but unfortunately nobody does).

Send a letter via snail mail that clearly states that you disagree with their EULA but were unfortunately only made aware of the EULA after your purchase. Include a printed, revised EULA with your proposals for changes. Be reasonable in the changes you propose.

If they reply to you that they disagree with the changes, they can prohibit you from using the software or service, but then you're also entitled to a full refund, of course.

If they forget to reply, their EULA will not be enforceable.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by Terr_ on Thursday March 22, 2018 @12:39AM (#16645791)
I don't know, this sounds a little bit like that sovereign citizen "wrong flag in the courtroom" stuff.

Even if they haven't replied, the original contract is still sitting there clearly stating that a certain set of assumptions are in place if you use the software. I don't see any way to argue that a non-reply implies consent to new terms or abandonment of any terms.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by jonathanstrange on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:00AM (#16647240)
A contract is only valid if both parties agree. If one of them explicitly disagrees, the contract is definitely not valid.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by inetknght on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:20AM (#16638167)
gasp

Are... are you... this is the internet and are you... you are serious? Can I believe this? I want to believe this.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by pjmlp on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:34AM (#16638287)
EULAs in most European countries have zero value.

They are only valid if you are able to accept them before paying for the product.

Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by djsumdog on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:57AM (#16637989)
I've had two agreements that were separate pages, but all the recent ones were part of the actual job offer or employment contract. I feel like that's becoming more the standard/boilerplate.
Re:Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes by cynicalreason on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:02AM (#16638038)
Is that even legal ? I think in Europe they can't be part of the employment contract but as additional papers ( i may be wrong )