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Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by bwang29 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:10AM (#16635891)
Lytro has really cool technology but never really found a good use case for consumers. I owned both the 1st generation and 2nd generation camera, as much as I hated the UI of the software and usability of the hardware, I can clearly see the team has tried really hard to make it usable. They tried building an editing app, a community, a community 2.0, multiple hardware batch revisions. I wonder why they didn’t stop sooner or up to which point they feel like this direction is done. I felt they never really listened to the photographer community during the process, or answer support sufficiently, they have done pretty much the exact opposite of user first or user driven product development in my opinion, and this still left me confused today. Burning a few million dollars a month, I feel it really took a series of very bad decisions to lead to this financial outcome.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Stratoscope on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:47AM (#16636049)
I discovered Lytro at the Maker Faire when they had their "borrow a Lytro" demo. It was a great bit of marketing: take a Lytro around the Faire for an hour (where are there are always plenty of interesting subjects) and afterward they put all your shots in an online gallery for you. I got a fun shot or two that day and promptly bought one of their first cameras.

But it wasn't a very good camera, and they completely missed the boat on making it a storytelling tool.

I took my Lytro with me when I walked with Team Torani (the Italian syrup people) in the Columbus Day parade that year, and did not get even one good shot. I wished I'd brought my little point-and-shoot instead, or just about any other camera, because I would have gotten dozens of good shots.

The pitch at the time was "you can put your photos on lytro.com, and people who view your gallery can click anywhere to refocus!" But who wants to do that? If you're looking at a gallery of photos, do you want to go clicking around to bring different things in and out of focus? I don't.

But for a photographer, this had some potential as a storytelling tool. Imagine having a photo that would do its own "pull focus" [1] when you view it, like in the movies. The photographer could first focus on one subject and then have it slowly change focus to something else to reveal something new to the person viewing the photo. Kind of a Ken Burns effect [2] but in the focus plane instead of - or perhaps in addition to - panning and zooming.

I remember one photo I got at the Menlo Park street fair that would have lent itself to this. I had the camera down around knee height, and a dog came up with his nose inches from the lens. In the background was his owner, an attractive young lady. It was a nice shot, and I imagined having it start with the dog's nose in focus and then gradually pulling the focus back to the owner.

Granted, this wasn't much of a story, but it was something. I couldn't even do that. All I could do on lytro.com was set the initial focus, and then leave it to any viewers to go clicking around to fiddle with the focus themselves. But nobody wants to do that.

It seemed like an opportunity lost, because they were so focused (pun intended) on the amazing technology and not on how to use it to tell stories.

[1] https://vimeo.com/233143268

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Burns_effect

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by angrygoat on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:21AM (#16636373)
I've got a Lytro, and haven't used it for years, for many of the reasons you articulate.

To my mind their mistake was not having an open source library that could work with their capture format, including basic support for focusing and producing an output image for display.

Pretty much every new photography tech has had a community of amateurs and professionals spring up around it and (hopefully) innovate.

They missed out on that; all we got was the fun-for-a-few-minutes clicking around thing, which gets old pretty fast.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Stratoscope on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:39AM (#16636418)
> To my mind their mistake was not having an open source library that could work with their capture format, including basic support for focusing and producing an output image for display.

Oh, now you are making me wistful for what might have been.

If they'd had any kind of library or API, I could have played around with my Ken Burns idea by writing a few lines of code!

I've seen this same mistake over and over again going back to the earliest days of GUI apps: designing the user experience with hardcoded interactions instead of building the UI on top of a public API that enables others to create and experiment with their own interactions.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by nbush on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:11AM (#16638671)
Reading your parent comment and the replies has me kind of dumbfounded at the wasted potential. Did they ever address these ideas directly? Would opening up the format in even the most limited ways (like focus) have exposed the IP?
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by jacobolus on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:34AM (#16636202)
I think there’s a different (and to me more interesting) potential, which is to expose the layering to allow creative effects in post. For example you could realistically stick fog into any picture (or remove some amount of fog/haze from pictures that had it to begin with), turn the background monochromatic, add motion blur selectively at particular depths, create focus blur with any bokeh you want, take multiple pictures with the same person in different places and composite them together, etc. etc.

With careful and laborious use of Photoshop it’s possible to do most anything today, but with a light-field image there are a lot of creative controls that could be made easier, faster, and more reliable. (Of course, doing this properly would take hiring some signal processing gurus, color scientists, professional photo retouchers, and interface designers, and spending years on semi-open-ended research.)

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by gt_ on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:28AM (#16636184)
There is a lot of interesting stuff in your review. As a more classic photographer myself, I had some different criticisms but also found the thing about letting others click interact with the focus offputting.

The tech was really interesting to photographers and I absolutely think it could be adopted if built into a reasonable camera design. It’s very normal for photographers to carry many cameras and I knew people to carry Lyros some but I think some of it was that the company had two different users if was designing for, which isn’t usually a problem with cameras but this was so different and novelty that it mattered. I really think if they just made super nerdy products without trying to satisfy the cell phone crowd, they could have built a niche following in photographers.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by michaelbuckbee on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:42AM (#16638383)
The Vimeo link above goes to an astoundingly effective video essay on focus pulling, focus racks, etc. I'm not in any way doing video related work, but it was fascinating and I just wanted to recommend it.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by ipsum2 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:03AM (#16636104)
I was of the opinion that Lytro was just a gimmick (we have light fields, what can we do with them?), but your post is really insightful. What you describe sounds like a useful product.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by owenversteeg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:52AM (#16637954)
Do you still have the photo? I'd be curious to see it!
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Stratoscope on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:09PM (#16640154)
Now I'm curious to see it again too! But it seems to be long gone. I just checked the old machine I had the Lytro desktop software installed on, and then I remembered that I deleted the entire Lytro photo directory to free up space a long time ago and forgot to save the 2-3 interesting photos.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by acct1771 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:53AM (#16637963)
> The pitch at the time was "you can put your photos on lytro.com, and people who view your gallery can click anywhere to refocus!" But who wants to do that?

JFK assassination researchers.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by bunderbunder on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:40AM (#16638363)
1st gen owner here.

They absolutely tried hard, but I feel like they missed out on doing the one thing that might have really let the product take off: Releasing APIs (or at least protocol specs) for interacting with the camera over USB and wifi, and releasing a spec for their file format.

That might have given them a chance to really take off in the DIY and hobbyist market. After unboxing mine, I pretty much immediately wanted to use it to do the sorts of things that Google seems to want to do it. But without an easy way to dig into it, I lost interest pretty quickly.

Taking off my hacker hat and putting on my consumer hat, it just wasn't going to take off. My cell phone is even more portable, takes higher resolution images, and makes sharing them much easier. Getting to refocus after the fact wasn't that great a trick, because my cell phone camera already does such a good job at autofocusing.

Taking that one off and putting on my hobby photographer hat, same thing. Decades of taking pictures has left me with enough of a sense for where I want to put the focal point and what I want to do with the bokeh that I'd just as soon do it when I'm taking the picture. There was some initial fun of playing with a new toy, but ultimately I realized that doing it after the fact took what has historically been one of my favorite parts of photography and turned it into just another editing chore. That, and, even when I'm not 100% sure what I want to do with the focus at the time I'm taking the photo, my mirrorless's burst mode can accomplish essentially the same thing.

But if I could have strapped that sucker onto a robot and played with using it for 3D scene reconstruction or something. . . that would have been fun.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by majormajor on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:16PM (#16639515)
How well did it work for action?

That's where I find myself always hating autofocus (even on a fancy camera with focus tracking and motion detection and such).

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by giobox on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:35PM (#16641067)
How recent is your experience with "traditional" phase detect/contrast AF? There's been some ridiculously good improvements even in the past 12 months in cameras like the Nikon D850/Sony A7 XXX, to the point where fancy "lightfield" style setting focus in post like the Lytro is way lower on my personal wishlist than it once was. The eye detect AF in the Sonys is frankly superb when working with extremely shallow DoF. This stuff typically filters down range to cheaper models really quickly as well.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by majormajor on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @05:23PM (#16642554)
It's a recent camera but not top of the line (Fuji X-T2).

My problem is more that with animals, it's hard to make sure it's picked up the head vs the shoulders, say, and with shallow DOF that can ruin the shot. But then, I don't have eye detection, so maybe that would do the trick. :)

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by bunderbunder on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:51PM (#16639942)
The v1, at least, wasn't great for action. It has 10 focal planes, but they cover a fairly small range of distances, so it still needed an autofocus to get the range of focal lengths to be centered on the subject. And that autofocus was pretty slow, even slower than what I'm used to on an SLR.

I'd assume the Illum (which I've never had a chance to play with) would be way better on that front.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by sp332 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @08:52AM (#16637571)
But they did stop. They wound down the consumer products years ago and moved into enterprise consulting and selling huge cameras to move sets.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by PaulHoule on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:18PM (#16640919)
How about the potential as a robotics camera, say to compete with the Kinect or with laser scanners for self-driving cars, etc..?
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by samstave on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:16AM (#16635920)
They are buying them to make dash cams for self driving cars is my guess...

That tech in dash-cam video is priceless

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by akhatri_aus on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:27AM (#16635963)
It's likely for VR, the 'reverse' of the Lytro allows projection to the eye at multiple focal points.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by jacobush on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:04AM (#16636110)
I don't know about "likely", but that is an awesome idea.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by ipsum2 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:06AM (#16636122)
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by taneq on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:22AM (#16636167)
Wow, that looks awesome! For something at the demonstration-prototype stage in 2013 I'd have hoped they would have something at least in development by now.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Qworg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:40AM (#16636225)
They have a fully working version of it: https://vr.lytro.com/within/hallelujah
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by taneq on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:12AM (#16636341)
Looks awesome, but only an "experience" rather than something you can buy? I guess it would need an ultra-beefy system to run it, and is probably extremely expensive and not supported by much software (yet).
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Qworg on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:15AM (#16636348)
They run it for you - it is a capture service. https://www.lytro.com/immerge#immergeDetails
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by ipsum2 on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:53AM (#16636469)
We're talking about two different things. Hallelujah is interesting because it does light field videography, but what I linked was a light field display.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by ansible on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:41AM (#16636230)
My top candidate for AR in the longer term is a scanning pico-watt laser which projects the image directly onto your retina.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by coldtea on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:38AM (#16636017)
Why would it be priceless?

With dash-cam video you can just chose a fixed hyperfocal distance and have everything in good focus.

You certainly don't need creative DoP and bokeh...

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by JimmyAustin on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:41AM (#16636023)
Just spit-balling, but could it be used for cheap depth perception, like a LIDAR alternative?
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by StavrosK on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:49AM (#16636257)
Probably, but so can two normal cameras, like the ones humans have in our heads.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by KaiserPro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:12AM (#16637699)
stereo cameras only give two viewpoints, it requires a lot of processing power to re-create the 3d scene. a lightfield gives you much more information making reconstruction much simpler.

You can also see past occlusions, something not possible with stereo.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by StavrosK on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:21AM (#16637752)
How can you see past occlusions?
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by PaulHoule on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:39AM (#16638350)
A stereo camera array can see past occlusions in the sense that some things are occluded to one camera but not to another.

With a larger and more distributed camera array, cameras could be pointed everywhere so that every point in the field has a certain level of coverage.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by StavrosK on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @10:46AM (#16638425)
The GP said you can see past occlusions with a Lytro and not with stereo, and that sounds exactly the other way around to me (as to you).
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Jtsummers on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:43AM (#16639068)
You can do it with both, actually. Light field data allows you to simulate different viewing angles of the same scene. Depending on the sensor quality you can use this to "see around" objects which occlude the scene from a specific angle (like if you view the image from the center of the field of view). Some limitations, of course, similar to stereoscopic imagery.

Using stereoscopic as an example, you can synthesize a 2d image with the center being between the two sensors. The further apart you place the sensors, up to some limit, the more you can "rotate" the scene. But you lose a lot of data when the viewing angles become too extreme. A light field image can be used for the same effect, but because it's one sensor your ability to rotate the scene will be constrained (as if you had two sensors very close together).

Apparently the examples I saw years ago on Lytro's site aren't available anymore. It was a neat effect with their initial camera, I imagine higher quality cameras could do much more.

A neat thing with light field sensors versus stereoscopic is that you have far more freedom in how you move around the scene. With two sensors you can only move "left and right" or "up and down". With light field data and one sensor you can move in any direction.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by StavrosK on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:48AM (#16639127)
Ah, I see what you mean. You're constrained to viewpoints on the sensor, though, no? So usually a small square.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by PaulHoule on Thursday March 22, 2018 @01:10PM (#16650578)
A few Superbowls ago Intel demoed a supercomputer which could take in live video streams from hundreds of cameras, run a batch job for about 30 seconds, and then be able to synthesize video from arbitrary viewpoints above the crowd.

I think it worked by making a point cloud that fits the camera observations.

Obstruction is not a big issue in that use case, but if there was obstruction, the system could choose to ignore pixels that were obstructed when constructing the image.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Jtsummers on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:54AM (#16639203)
Right. And with the initial cameras, which were neat but not breathtaking in their capabilities, you really only got a small ability to move around the scene. A larger sensor or a pair of these would offer greater capabilities for this application. I believe using an array of sensors was how their video camera worked, but I'm not 100%.

(I spent a lot of time reading about light field stuffs back when Lytro was first announced, I was also tangentially connected to a synthetic aperture radar project so it piqued a lot of my curiosity at the time. I haven't kept up with the state-of-the-art since then, though.)

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Angostura on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:08AM (#16636128)
Sounds plausible to me.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by matte_black on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @07:35AM (#16637110)
Do you really want “cheap” depth perception for a self driving car?
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by Jtsummers on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:51AM (#16639161)
Perhaps read that as "inexpensive" rather than "cheap" if you take cheap to imply low quality.

Light field sensors could greatly aid self-driving vehicles as a significant improvement over standard cameras and stereoscopic configurations for object detection. It's not as good as Lidar in some ways, but it's much less expensive and offers some of the same kinds of data (which means greater portability of algorithms or techniques between the two sensor types). And since cars need to see the same visual cues humans do, we need cameras anyways (for reading signs and road directions, lane detection, etc.) so using a light field sensor could offer a twofer. Improved object detection plus the ability to do visual detection we already need.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by opencl on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:19AM (#16638764)
Yes? Why would you not want it to be cheap? Current self driving LIDAR units costing $75,000 seems like a pretty major barrier to mass producing the things.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by jazoom on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:50AM (#16636267)
Yeah dash cams are super wide angle. I don't see the point since everything will always be in focus.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by samstave on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @11:43AM (#16639071)
The reason I was initially thinking of was that a dash cam with multi focal distances could provide a way to see a dash vid from multi perspectives - and basically make a single dash cam “seem” like many individual cams where you can get the focal clarity of distance from more than one perspective? Else, my understanding of the lytro tech is false.
Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by KaiserPro on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @09:10AM (#16637685)
A light field allows you to generate dense 3d point clouds, even when static.

segmentation of foreground/background, becomes much simpler.

Re:Sources: Google is buying Lytro for about $40M by randomerr on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @03:39AM (#16636222)
I think its more that what the tech is for the Pixel 2 Super XL edition or Pixel 3. That would let you build a 3d photo and post it to Google Photos. Or maybe they could partner up with a 3D printing company the way you can print photo albums.