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Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by StudentStuff on Friday March 16, 2018 @06:59PM (#16604578)
Blocking a bike lane is potentially causing severe injury to a bicyclist, as now your car is blocking their path and they could end up smashing into your illicitly parked vehicle.

I've had friends end up going through the rear windshields of cars, getting doored, etc here in Seattle, so even though I don't bike, I make a point to go and harass people illegally parked in bike lanes (which is really common north of the ship canal).

What if a bike can't stop in time coming down the hill? They're going to likely get horribly injured due to your illegal parking job. The bike lane is for bikes exclusively, even in the suburbs.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by briandear on Friday March 16, 2018 @09:34PM (#16605142)
Failure to control speed is a moving violation and should be ticketed appropriately. What if a person is crossing the street and, according to you, a bike would be potentially unable to stop?

Any vehicle on the road has a legal obligation to operate their vehicle safely and lawfully — that means a bike ought never be unable to stop in time.

Some person could get horribly injured due to a bicyclist failing to control speed.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by hedora on Saturday March 17, 2018 @10:14AM (#16607018)
> Any vehicle on the road has a legal obligation to operate their vehicle safely and lawfully — that means a bike ought never be unable to stop in time.

Would you make the same argument about leaving unmarked construction equipment behind blind curves on the freeway?

Blocking or unexpectedly merging into downhill bike lanes in the city is similarly bad.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by metilda on Saturday March 17, 2018 @12:16AM (#16605582)
Coming down a hill at 20Mph in a bike lane that should be at least partially clear on a wet day (very common in Seattle) is perfectly legal. Running into a large unexpected object in the path is hardly the cyclists fault.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by patricklynch on Saturday March 17, 2018 @05:00AM (#16606111)
> perfectly legal

Well, not necessarily.

If your reflexes are good enough, and your brakes are good enough, and your tires are good enough, that you can safely stop a bike going 20mph on a wet downhill section, then yes; you are still in control of your vehicle and operating at a safe speed. No legal problems there.

But maybe your reflexes aren't that good because you haven't had coffee yet. Or maybe your brakes are worn down. Or maybe you're on crazy thin road tires that have effectively no traction going downhill in the rain. Or some combination of all three.

The point being, if it's not physically possible for you to stop that bike in whatever time interval is required, are you really operating that vehicle safely? Probably not.

And to the extent that you're legally required to operate at a safe speed and maintain control of your vehicle, your behavior would no longer be "perfectly legal."

So 20 mph + downhill + wet roads may very well be illegal for some combinations of cyclist and bicycle but not others. It seems premature to declare that perfectly legal in all cases.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by foobarian on Saturday March 17, 2018 @12:24AM (#16605606)
I tried telling that to the insurance agency when I rear-ended a car that suddenly stopped in front of me. It didn't work.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by ytoi on Saturday March 17, 2018 @12:41AM (#16605637)
Someone suddenly stopping shouldn't be unexpected, nor is it necessarily against the rules of the road. Hacker News is fun and all but consistently gets beaten by 15 seconds of googling e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/nyregion/double-parking-i...
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by daveFNbuck on Saturday March 17, 2018 @02:12AM (#16605807)
If you can't see whether there's a large object in your path within time to stop, you're going too fast. There could be a fallen or slow bicyclist in the lane.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by interfixus on Saturday March 17, 2018 @03:52AM (#16605992)
This is so obviously, indisputably true. How can anyone be downvoting?
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by hedora on Saturday March 17, 2018 @10:18AM (#16607035)
You’ve clearly never been going downhill on a bike and had someone illegally stop their car or pull out in front of you. Bikes take more distance to stop than cars.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by interfixus on Saturday March 17, 2018 @10:36AM (#16607112)
You've clearly never considered the necessity of matching your speed to conditions and surroundings and whatever surprises they may hold.

I have. For close on fourty years of much cycling and driving. Which may be a contributing factor in my never having suffered an accident.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by pteredactyl on Sunday March 18, 2018 @03:59PM (#16613946)
No, it's always their fault. /s
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by traek on Saturday March 17, 2018 @02:55AM (#16605890)
That’s the point. People in cars have to be able to avoid objects in front of them (whether that’s drivers suddenly stopping or other obstructions) and so do bicyclists.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by ryanwaggoner on Friday March 16, 2018 @09:00PM (#16605052)
now your car is blocking their path and they could end up smashing into your illicitly parked vehicle. I've had friends end up going through the rear windshields of cars

I agree with the arguments about moving cars pulling into the bike lane, doors opening, etc, BUT if you can't avoid smashing your bike into a parked car with enough force to go through the rear window, then you definitely aren't skilled or responsible enough to be riding in the city.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by CalRobert on Saturday March 17, 2018 @09:11AM (#16606810)
Would you feel the same about a driver hitting a car parked on the freeway?
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by ryanwaggoner on Saturday March 17, 2018 @09:29AM (#16606855)
Of course. My belief is that if you ram your car into a stationary object, regardless of the conditions, you're at fault. Either you weren't paying attention or you were driving too fast for conditions.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by CalRobert on Saturday March 17, 2018 @05:20PM (#16609114)
Thanks for the consistency.

It would be instructive if more people took motorcycle safety training. They really emphasized that you should ride as though there could be a dropped load of concrete, boulder, or pothole around every corner, every blind hill, or every car, and stop accordingly.

I think this is mostly because the consequence of hitting debris is much more likely to be fatal on a motorcycle, but it would be good advice for anyone, really.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by vsl on Sunday March 18, 2018 @03:15AM (#16610810)
Exactly. Because one time there will be such a surprise object in your way.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by metilda on Saturday March 17, 2018 @12:18AM (#16605590)
You should see the driving and biking conditions in Seattle. Expecting a bike to stop on a dime when coming down a hill just after it rains is wholly unrealistic.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by ryanwaggoner on Saturday March 17, 2018 @09:34AM (#16606866)
First, I don't understand why you need to "stop on a dime" to avoid a stationary object ahead?

Second, a huge part of safely operating any vehicle in an environment (especially a chaotic one you share with cars, bikes, and pedestrians) is awareness of your surroundings and the ability to avoid collisions. This is seriously driving / biking 101.

If you are zooming around on your bike and just thinking "hope no objects / people / cars are sitting stationary in my way because there's no way I can stop and I'll definitely hit them", then you're a dangerous menace.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by rapind on Saturday March 17, 2018 @12:38AM (#16605632)
s/bike/car and good luck in court. "But I couldn't stop! The road was wet!"
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by sfifs on Saturday March 17, 2018 @08:54AM (#16606744)
Maybe you shouldn't be cycling in Seattle then?
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by iamnotlarry on Saturday March 17, 2018 @10:52AM (#16607205)
I think you are making the wrong argument here. A bicyclist should have control of their bike. If there is injury involved, that is on the cyclist. (Dooring is another issue.)

But I think the problem becomes very clear if you allow another car to pull up next to the one in the bike lane and stop in the middle of the lane to berate the first car. Just for 30 seconds or so. If somebody rear-ended that car, the person in the moving vehicle should get a ticket. But what should be the consequence to the person stopped in the middle of the lane? Would the mayor be so casual to "30 second" stops if car lanes were blocked by parked cars 40% of the time?

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by petre on Saturday March 17, 2018 @01:37PM (#16608060)
I once had to go around a car stopped in a bike lane, slid and fell badly while trying to re-enter the somewhat elevated bike lane (about two inches from the road - it's like a red painted sidewalk, two feet wide, with a bevel on the edge). The driver was inside the car having a phone conversation, so he was probably stopped there for just 30 seconds - enough to cause a bicycle accident.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by vsl on Sunday March 18, 2018 @03:10AM (#16610792)
You could have, you know, stopped and waited for the car to start moving. As cars do when blocked.

A post elsewhere hear said it already, but it’s my experience too: cyclist break laws constantly, due to apparent feeling of entitlement to keep moving fast, regardless of the traffic, lights etc. the thought of just stopping safely for a few seconds didn’t even cross your mind in the situation.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by iamnotlarry on Saturday March 17, 2018 @06:11PM (#16609323)
No. Sorry. They did not cause an accident. It is important that your understand this.

Note that I am not sympathetic to the driver of the car. They probably deserve criticism, but not blame for your slide. I know that you want to blame somebody that is not yourself. That's human. But when any pedestrian, bike, car, airplane, drone, skateboard, etc. runs into a stationary pedestrian, bike, car, airplane, drone, skateboard, house, fence, animal, etc. it is almost certainly the fault of the moving object's operator.

In your case, you failed to change lanes safely. It sounds like you really blame the lane design for having a bevel between lanes. It's interesting to me that the bevel probably has almost zero effect on cars/trucks but a significant effect on bikes. That seems like a bike-hostile design. The fact that it is only two feet wide seems questionable to me. A slow-moving bike would also encourage you to change lanes, navigating the bevel twice.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by petre on Monday March 19, 2018 @01:54AM (#16616403)
So by the same logic, if you stop your car in the middle of the highway and someone slides into the parapet after going around it, you did not cause an accident?

I agree with the bike hostile design part. Navigating the bevel downwards is not a problem. Navigating it upwards at a steep angle of attack is.

[dead]
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by CydeWeys on Friday March 16, 2018 @07:42PM (#16604775)
> As for getting doored, well, how are motor vehicles avoiding this? Oh, right, by WATCHING WHAT'S GOING ON.

Motor vehicle drivers don't have to worry much about being doored, as they're way more visible and it isn't life-threatening for them if it does happen. The person opening the door is way more likely to be injured in such a scenario than the driver of the oncoming vehicle.

Also, if we biked the same way we drove cars, that is, in the middle of a full lane, then we wouldn't be at risk of being doored either. I do that on occasion as necessary, but you would not believe how furious drivers get when they're stuck behind a cyclist going much slower than them that they cannot pass.

How about this -- You can make it the cyclists' fault if and only if you can get all drivers to be OK with cyclists taking full lanes of traffic, away from all car doors. This will likely reduce the max speed of vehicle traffic to around 12 mph.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by Steltek on Friday March 16, 2018 @08:42PM (#16605002)
NYC has a law requiring cyclists to stay in the bike lane if one is present. Only more civilized cities (like Boston ;) allow bikes to take the full lane. Although traffic moves so slowly there's rarely a point unless the bike lane is blocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by CydeWeys on Friday March 16, 2018 @10:24PM (#16605294)
You're missing the point, which is that bike lanes are frequently in door zones whereas main travel lanes are not (because they are much wider and have more buffer zone).
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by isostatic on Saturday March 17, 2018 @05:55AM (#16606224)
"Also, if we biked the same way we drove cars, that is, in the middle of a full lane, then we wouldn't be at risk of being doored either."

That's exactly how I ride, it's called the primary position and in the uk it's what the government recommend.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by CydeWeys on Saturday March 17, 2018 @08:34AM (#16606683)
Drivers lose their shit here if you do that and hold them up. I do it anyway as necessary in more unsafe segments of road.
Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by isostatic on Monday March 19, 2018 @08:57AM (#16617977)
Drivers lose their shit everywhere.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/0...

Unless they're going to murder you I suspect you're still safer.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by mulmen on Friday March 16, 2018 @08:26PM (#16604955)
I ride a motorcycle and I like breathing.

The other day I was riding down a normal surface street in Seattle and a parked late model Camaro with black windows started its engine and pulled out from the curb in a few seconds. There was no angle that would have allowed me to see if this car was occupied.

I was able to stop in time and avoid an accident but if I had not reacted I would have ended up on his roof. In your opinion was I in the wrong?

You don't sound willing to give cyclists any support when you condemn the entire group for the actions of a few and disregard legitimate threats to their safety.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by wkearney99 on Saturday March 17, 2018 @10:35PM (#16610225)
No, you practiced safely operating your motorcycle. More should be as responsible.

I've always been willing to support cyclists but cannot ignore the staggering number of them that completely disregard traffic laws on a near constant basis. And then come online and winge about the risks TO THEM while ignoring the risks THEY impose on others. In the name of what, being able to maintain their momentum? Sure, I'd love to do the same, yet abiding by traffic laws is a bit more valuable that my selfish desires.

Downvote all you like but understand you're downvoting someone that does cycle and has a lot of respect for the challenges presented doing so in an urban environment. You're downvoting someone that favors the activity but has taken the time to point out you're being pompous assholes QUITE a lot of the time when you're out and about on two wheels.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by mulmen on Sunday March 18, 2018 @04:14AM (#16610940)
How do you know I am a pompous asshole quite a lot of the time? How do you know if and why I downvoted you?

You seem to be angry at an entire class of people which is unfair to individuals. Your bias strikes me as dangerous.

Re:Bus Lane Blocked, He Trained His Computer to Catch Scofflaws by mikelward on Friday March 16, 2018 @08:59PM (#16605043)
The bike lane is entirely within a door-length. Cars are already on both sides (parked on one side, driving on the other), so cyclists often have nowhere to go. Drivers and passengers being unaware of cyclists is not the cyclists' fault!

A public awareness campaign of the Dutch Reach could help a lot. https://99percentinvisible.org/article/dutch-reach-clever-wo...

As could penalties for endangering fellow road users.