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Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by gaius on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:05PM (#16524387)
If you run a loss you're still on the hook for taxes? That doesn't make sense to me

But what if by SHEER COINCIDENCE the profit you would have made by normal accounting standards just so happens to be EXACTLY the licensing fee an overseas subsidiary charges to use your own brand?

Google spent a billion quid on their new HQ building in London. That's an awful lot to invest in a country where you make no profits...

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by dang on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524573)
Could you please not use uppercase for emphasis in HN comments? It's basically yelling, and the site guidelines ask you not to: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by gaius on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:44PM (#16524745)
Sure, it's just I'd already used italics for quoting and didn't want to mix the two. Could we get bold as a feature as well please?
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by dang on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:58PM (#16524850)
Ah, gotcha. Bold? Doubtful—that too would make things louder. HN writers have enough textual inventiveness to do without that (and allcaps), if they want to.

IMO your comment would read better and be more persuasive if you'd simply downcase the allcaps.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by tptacek on Monday March 05, 2018 @07:31PM (#16525895)
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by dragonwriter on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:09PM (#16524426)
> Google spent a billion quid on their new HQ building in London. That's an awful lot to invest in a country where you make no profits...

Not really, if it's a regional talent center; Google needs physical locations where it wants to spend money by hiring people more than it needs them where it makes money, since it's moneymaking operations are not high-tech in-person interactions.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by gaius on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:12PM (#16524446)
Not really, if it's a regional talent center

It wants workers educated by the State, who travel on infrastructure maintained by the State, who have healthcare provided by the State, security provided by the State, yadda yadda yadda. All the advantages, but none of the costs.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by JOnAgain on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:26PM (#16524583)
Payroll taxes, income taxes on the employees, property taxes, and VAT on the employee's spending. Just saying generally that it's fine to have a business with employees in a jurisdiction even if the company is doing business elsewhere. Outside of this context, it's also a net win for the state if the business operates, employs people, and pays above said taxes, but doesn't manage to turn a profit provided it is a continuing operation.

Now, all that said, I don't think subsidiaries should be able to use licensing agreements and other loopholes to move revenue to eliminate profit and reduce corporate tax. To me the solution is just to disallow any movement money related to intangibles (payments or license fees) unless the exchange is a bona fide transaction between unrelated parties. These subsidiaries in different jurisdictions are all entities owned by the same holding co's. It's like selling your brother a house for $1 (or more like the use of your last name for $1 Billion).

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by dragonwriter on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:29PM (#16524606)
Sure, and those are all benefits to the company that enable it to make profits elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it's making any profits in the UK. (Though you could make the reverse of the upthread argument about charges between sister companies, that this suggests the British subsidiary is undercharging the subsidiaries that are making money.)
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by JoshTriplett on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:19PM (#16524504)
And in that case, both the company and the employee pay substantial income taxes.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by neumann on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524567)
Did you read the article? The whole point is that the companies do not pay the income tax by routing revenue through other countries offering tax cuts
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by JoshTriplett on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:43PM (#16524736)
I read the article; it says nothing about income tax. It talks about corporate tax, which gets into the reasonably debatable issue of "if you serve from country X and users are in country Y..." If you have no legal nexus in a country, it's a lot more reasonable to pay no tax in that country.

If you have employees in a country, then you necessarily will pay income tax in that country.

(Also, https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .)

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by mulmen on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:29PM (#16524613)
I thought the point of the new tax was that Google pays next to no tax in Europe. Can you explain the current income taxes Google pays now?
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by petre on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:32PM (#16524636)
That's probably why they built it in the UK and not in Belgium or any other EU country with insane taxes for that matter.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by ucaetano on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:07PM (#16524396)
> profit you would have made by normal accounting standards

These are normal accounting standards.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by FridgeSeal on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:13PM (#16524451)
Just because it was legal and normal before doesn't mean it should stay that way.

If we decide that the double duct/Irish sandwich/etc are loopholes that are being explored and we'd like them closed, then it's entirely valid to do so.

Money made in the past does not mean that your are entitled or guaranteed to make money in the future.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by ucaetano on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:44PM (#16524744)
Sure, but it is up to the countries to get together and change them. If companies are paying fewer taxes by following the law, don't blame it on companies, they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

I am completely in favor of designing new tax laws that close such loopholes. But taxing revenue in this way is a very, very dumb idea.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by jopsen on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524564)
Is it even legal?

It's surely also most impossible prosecute, but speculation wrt. taxes is generally not legal.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by andruby on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:14PM (#16524462)
I wonder if companies have a fiscal accounting and an economic accounting. The latter would be used to base economic decision on.

That accounting should show a nice profit in EU countries.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by wongarsu on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:37PM (#16524676)
If you learn accounting in Germany, there's external accounting and internal accounting.

External accounting is what you show your investors and tax authorities. It has to conform to all relevant laws, and you play your usual tax avoidance games. Both of those make it fairly unusable for decision making.

Internal accounting is what you base your decisions on, and you can do whatever you like (since you aren't showing it around). It just has to provide insight. For example you can have departments do virtual payments to each other for production steps and services to help you quantify how well departments are doing.

In English/US accounting traditionally you would only do fiscal accounting, but doing internal accounting as well is getting popular.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by ucaetano on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:50PM (#16524787)
They do, and they frequently release the numbers (often calling it non-GAAP).

The issue is that accounting is very complicated. Like really, really complicated. And that's because you're trying to make a lot of very different companies follow the same rules on how to recognize revenue, costs, investments, etc.

For example, here's a real world problem I came across once: how do you recognize the revenue of selling virtual tractors on FarmVille?

- When the sale takes place?

- Over a pre-set period of time, determined by the average lifetime of an user?

- Over a pre-set schedule that follows depreciation schedules of real tractors?

Economic is even more complicated. Economic profit takes in account the cost of opportunity, so a company might have accounting profit but no economic profit. It gets even worse when you're talking about cross-border accounting.

In other words, companies usually have managerial accounting using their own internal rules, and standards-based accounting (GAAP, IFRS, etc.), to report operations to the government and to the owners.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by ryanworl on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524574)
Yes, this is called “managerial accounting” in business school.