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Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by iagooar on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:37PM (#16524156)
> Maybe some day European countries will all get together and agree on a single, unified corporate tax level across the European Union.

I completely agree. European countries should start thinking more about their shared, common good than how to outrun their partners.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by wrren on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:44PM (#16524210)
As an Irish person, I consider this perspective to be hilariously naive. Without tax incentives, our ability to attract foreign direct investment is massively reduced and the jobs that need to attract will instead go to mainland Europe.

It might work if we started by establishing a framework of financial transfers between states, but without something like that in place Ireland and a bunch of smaller countries will keep vetoing attempts to normalise tax rates.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by gaius on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:09PM (#16524423)
Without tax incentives, our ability to attract foreign direct investment is massively reduced

The Irish government hit upon a very clever strategy of collecting subsidies from the EU, spending that money in lieu of tax in its own territory, therefore being able to charge lower corporation tax, luring jobs away from the very economies that were paying those aformentioned subsidies in the first place! Unfortunately the other EU countries have figured out what was happening now.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by stefan_ on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:57PM (#16524305)
If your economy is "jobs" in the exchange for favorable taxing & EU access that just makes you a Rentier state. All the value is in the tax avoidance scheme, not whatever the employees are doing. It's not far removed from Saudi-Arabia, the biggest game of the Sims ever played.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by simonh on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:26PM (#16524588)
It’s not at all like Saudi Arabia. Having those technical and finance jobs in Ireland builds up a reservoirs of skilled labour in those areas that attracts companies. I saw this first hand at at a previous employer. We would preferentially move technology roles to Ireland - speak excellent English, in the EU, cheap office space and plenty of technically capable workers. Without the latter, nurtured by businesses chasing tax advantages, it would have been significantly less attractive. To be honest I think that would be happening to an extent anyway, but certainly many of the tax break business is contributing to establishing economic depth in Ireland in a way extractive industries don’t.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by distances on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:21PM (#16524523)
I get the sentiment regarding Saudi-Arabia, but the not what you actually mean by it being a game of Sims. Care to elaborate?
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by mark_edward on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:53PM (#16524285)
If there only thing your country has to offer is tax shelter instead of infrastructure, talent, resources, etc. Maybe work on that
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by wrren on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:00PM (#16524339)
Sure thing boss, and maybe I'll drag the country over and connect it to the mainland and then see if I can seed the place with valuable ores, oil, etc. That'll solve the problem
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by alva on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:16PM (#16524474)
Providing the Taoiseach holds the Brexit line throughout, it wouldn't be that surprising if the EU backs off a bit.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by madez on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:13PM (#16524450)
There is no right to equal economic wealth for all regions.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by WingH on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:45PM (#16524755)
No thanks, I'll take tax shelter over all of the above :)
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by cornholio on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:19PM (#16524499)
You have just described a race to the bottom fueled by a tragedy of the commons. The textbook solution is exactly what has been suggested: coordination among players so that the overall welfare is maximized.

Sure, if Ireland chooses to pass on this revenue it should be able to do so, but this should not stop France from taxing a Google that is doing business in France from an Ireland PO Box. The philosophy of the common market predates the global digital market and is no longer adequate.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by jopsen on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:42PM (#16524731)
But you are attracting foreign investment at the expense of everybody else.

This is like peeing your pants when it's cold outside, it's nice an warm at first :)

If you look at America you'll see what this race to the bottom does. Amazons new headquarter selection process is entirely about luring tax incentives out of various states.

These schemes are largely outlawed in the EU, for good reason. The play Ireland makes only works because most of the European governments have too much integrity to play this game, and refuse to be beholden by corporate interest.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by radicalbyte on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:19PM (#16524496)
Ireland, The Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. Those are the countries where you can easily find fluent English speakers within the European Union.

With the tax equal anywhere in the EU, Ireland would be clearly the #1 place to locate the jobs for large international companies - particularly American ones.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by Supernaut on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @04:48AM (#16527886)
Speaking as another Irish person, I find it disheartening to see a compatriot playing to the prejudices of our critics. The country has vastly more to offer than just tax incentives, and it is not and has never been a tax haven in the sense that Bermuda or the Cayman Islands are. We were attracting significant high-tech FDI as far back as the '70s, from companies like Apple, IBM, DEC, Amdahl and Atari. They set up manufacturing and sales operations here, in an era when the corporate tax rate climbed as high as 50%!

As simonh noted in his reply to your comment, "Having those technical and finance jobs in Ireland builds up a reservoir of skilled labour in those areas that attracts companies. I saw this first hand at at a previous employer. We would preferentially move technology roles to Ireland - speak excellent English, in the EU, cheap office space and plenty of technically capable workers."

Apple's sweetheart deal with the tax authorities here is an embarrassment, but the lesson has been learnt and we won't see that kind of arrangement occurring again.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by nitwit005 on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524566)
If the only way we can succeed is at the expense of others, maybe you should consider failure.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by bad_good_guy on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:14PM (#16524458)
Ireland is soon to be the only English-as-first-language European country. I would think that is a large factor.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by JustAnotherPat on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:14PM (#16524459)
The Irish are free to Exit the EU like their British neighbors. Then you can keep your taxes as low as you want.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by ghein on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524572)
Writing tax laws effectively is hard, just like writing effective and secure code that will be publicly accessible is.

You have to think about edge cases, not introduce race conditions, handle buffer overflows. And the people trying to find bugs are extremely motivated!

An EU commissioner or some junior bureaucrat in Brussels has no incentives for quality drafting. They won't get a bonus if tax revenues go up by 10%, and they don't get much help to review drafts. They want to do a good job, sure, but they also want to go skiing, or have a cold, or want to catch up on Black Mirror.

Apple, Google, and Facebook each have very strong incentives to examine the law and identify ways to optimize their position. They can and do pay their employees, law firms, accounting firms, and other consultancies VERY large fees. Tax work to identify overspend (a shipment had the wrong tax category applied and was charged a higher rate, for example) typically earns 33% commission, as just one example.

You can just rule by decree, but then you drop all pretence of being a government of laws. You have to explain, in detail, what an internet company is, how you will categorize revenue, how you will attribute it to a certain country, etc etc.

For the EU, sure they don't have many big Internet firms. But they sell lots of cars, shoes, clothes, wine, robots, trains, etc to the US. They are putting all of that at risk to satisfy the pique of Bertelsmann and Holtzbrinck.

Trump's off the cuff tariffs are stupid and counter productive. So are the EU's attempts to hobble Google and Ireland.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by HumanDrivenDev on Monday March 05, 2018 @03:49PM (#16524252)
The European Union can't coordinate a common policy on its external borders, defense or foreign relations. Aren't those the things best handled by a supranational union/confederation, while things like tax are best handled by individual member states?

The EU is bizzare to me in how much it legislates wrt to the internal affairs of its members, and how little influence it has on the things I mentioned above. Seems inside out.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by charlesdm on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:09PM (#16524424)
I'm pro EU. But there are only two options: either you merge the EU into a proper union (shared taxes, no tax competition within the bloc, shared money streams and bonds) or you disband it (or at least reduce some of its responsibilities).

The issue in part is that the euro, while great to use for consumers, wasn't thought out properly. The Euro Germany needs isn't the Euro Greece needs. And that has significant effects throughout local economies.

Tax competition can only be solved by throwing everything in one pot, and then dividing it again so everyone wins. But I can't see that happening with all the populism rising across the world.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by kgwgk on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:18PM (#16524493)
It’s not realistic to expect the countries in the EU to be “more united” than the states in the US.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by John_KZ on Monday March 05, 2018 @09:31PM (#16526434)
Correct. People try to make just about politics or the "naive masses" who follow the populists. It's not.

South and East europe are damned to an eternally declining economy if they don't leave the EU. There is no interest from Germany or Frace to redistribute the wealth to the periphery so they can develop too. They took away their ability to devalue their currency, so all they're left with is adjusting tax rates. Bulgaria, Ireland and the Netherlands are prime examples of somewhat succeeding in that. Greece and Spain aren't allowed to do it because of austerity. If the EU decides for a flat tax rate, everyone but the big 2 are doomed.

Unity is already hard for a country like the US, where everyone speaks the same language and could move to a different state overnight with no issues. For a union like the EU, pretending there are no borders is outright lying. What do they expect to happen? Have the entire EU move to Berlin when the last jobs in the South die out? Turn everyone in the South to a bartender for the Germans and everyone East to a cheap subcontractor for car parts? It won't work.

I believe in a unified europe. I love freedom of movement. But that won't happen through the current EU and Brussels administration. We need a new, better union, or no union at all. What we have now clearly doesn't work.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by taoistextremist on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:02PM (#16524360)
The EU is originally an economic union with aspirations for political unity. Taxes is actually really appropriate for it to be involved in if you consider why it was formed in the first place.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by distances on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:24PM (#16524555)
That will never fly though. The citizens have massive mistrust of ending up paying for the spending of other countries.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by jopsen on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:44PM (#16524751)
Citizens don't know about corporate taxes, so that might fly :)

Especially, since it would probably be handled by local tax authorities. So this would only be agreeing on what the corporate tax rate should be.

Most citizens (me included) don't know what corporate taxes are... or what the rate is :)

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by wongarsu on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:39PM (#16524702)
They already do that. The EU has a decently sized budget for developing underdeveloped regions and infrastructure in general.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by simonh on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:35PM (#16524660)
It boy has the control and influence it’s member states grant to it. The EU can’t unilaterally impose rules on its members, hence Britain’s ability to negotiate exceptions to any EU policies or initiatives we didn’t want to be part of - Working Time Directive, Schengen Agreement, Euro Zone, etc. Tax policy is something EU member governments want to keep to themselves and don’t all agree on, and as long as that it so the EU will have a very limited say in it.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by drexlspivey on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:03PM (#16525380)
If Ireland was offering access to their own market of 5m they should be able to set whatever corporate tax they like. When they are offering access to a market of 550m they shouldn't be able to undercut everyone else.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by ghein on Monday March 05, 2018 @08:23PM (#16526157)
So what's a fair rate of tax? Who decides?

The French Finance Minister? A EU Commissioner?

Taxation without representation in a purportedly democratic polity tends to not go down well.

Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by sethgecko on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @05:48AM (#16528056)
Ideally an EU finance minister appointed by the European Parliament.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by tanilama on Monday March 05, 2018 @04:25PM (#16524575)
Then we are running into this taxation without central government problem. Not all countries in EU are for further integration, this might a lot of eyebrows.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by alkonaut on Monday March 05, 2018 @05:27PM (#16525136)
Agreeing on a range of acceptable tax rates might be doable at least. This is nationsl politics that is decided by national budgets after all.
Re:European Union plans to tax tech giants on local revenue by tonyedgecombe on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:23PM (#16525504)
It would be easier to drop corporation tax and instead tax dividends and capital gains as if they were income.