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Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by zaroth on Saturday March 03, 2018 @02:37PM (#16511104)
And in other news, "nitrate free" bacon sold in the US isn't actually nitrate free;

"Ever since the “war on nitrates” of the 1970s, US consumers have been more savvy about nitrates than those in Europe, and there is a lot of “nitrate-free bacon” on the market. The trouble, as Jill Pell remarks, is that most of the bacon labelled as nitrate-free in the US “isn’t nitrate-free”. It’s made with nitrates taken from celery extract, which may be natural, but produces exactly the same N-nitroso compounds in the meat. Under EU regulation, this bacon would not be allowed to be labelled “nitrate-free”.

“It’s the worst con I’ve ever seen in my entire life,” says Denis Lynn, the chair of Finnebrogue Artisan, a Northern Irish company that makes sausages for many UK supermarkets, including Marks & Spencer."

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by TACIXAT on Saturday March 03, 2018 @02:42PM (#16511144)
I get sinus headaches from sodium nitrites (among other things). I was stoked about the nitrite free bacon. Had it, got a headache, found out about celery after a bunch of searching. I need to find a butcher so I can just get straight pork belly.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tptacek on Saturday March 03, 2018 @04:28PM (#16511681)
Are you sure it isn't just salt that's doing that to you?

There's more nitrate in bacon than in plain pork belly to be sure, but there's actually not much of it, and the amounts you need to consume to have a vasoconstrictive effect seems high. Meanwhile: bacon (along with all cured meat and fish) is one of the very saltiest things we eat. Lots of people are salt-sensitive. This is probably what virtually all claims of "Chinese restaurant syndrome" (MSG sensitivity) turned out to be.

You should have no trouble finding pork belly. Try an experiment: just make your own bacon by filling a pan with kosher salt and pushing each side of the pork belly into it until they're all evenly and aggressively covered. Wrap the meat in plastic wrap, dump the pan, and put the meat back in it; leave it in the fridge for 3-4† days. Rinse it off and slice it. See if you get a headache from eating it.

(Home-cured bacon is good but if you don't add some of the carcinogen back to the cure, it's not safe to keep much longer than fresh meat is).

† That's a light cure, but long enough for this experiment, and if you're new to baconing and don't know what to look for, under-cured is better than over.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by TACIXAT on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:03PM (#16512471)
I am actually sure. I eat salt daily. I'll try that with the pork belly because it sounds delicious.

The big footnote missing from my post is that I'm celiac. I've done a ton of trial and error to find foods that cause me problems. I basically eat chicken (seasoned with salt and pepper) and rice (with butter) everyday. I only drink water and unsweetened vanilla almond milk. My snacks are popcorn and salted potato or corn chips. On this diet I don't get sinus headaches.

No one likes to hear it, but I've isolated monosodium glutamate as a trigger too. It's in a ton of flavored chips that I ate thinking they'd be fine for me.

Give me a month to try this. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tptacek on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:08PM (#16512493)
You eat salt daily, of course, but you're never eating so much concentrated salt as you are when you eat any significant amount of bacon. I'm not suggesting that you're so sensitive that the amount of salt you get from a salt shaker, or from seasoning a steak or a burger before cooking it, is going to set you off. There's so much salt in the bacon that it dramatically alters the texture of the meat!

You also believe yourself to be sensitive to MSG, but the common thread between the foods that are causing you symptoms might not be a pair of poorly-observed sensitivities, but rather that the foods that trigger you tend to be very salty.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by mathattack on Saturday March 03, 2018 @10:55PM (#16513174)
It doesn’t seem like much sodium per Google.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bacon+nutritional+value&rlz=...

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by originalsimba on Sunday March 04, 2018 @05:39AM (#16514149)
but then you pour salt on it when cooking. I mean who eats saltless bacon? Gross. Why would you even bother.

Anyway this stuff really doesn't matter. People have been attacking foods since I was a baby. It's nearly always lies. Literally every single thing that you can eat has been attacked as being fattening, cancer causing, or "bad for you" and 99.999999% of the time there is zero science behind it.

For example people to this day claim that aspartame is poisonous even tho it is most definitely not. And now those same people attack Splenda. The fact is none of them know what they're talking about and they're unhappy with their lives so they don't want you enjoying yours. So they attack your foods. This has been going on at least my entire life but probably much longer than that.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by TACIXAT on Sunday March 04, 2018 @11:40AM (#16515296)
You talk about science behind things like we have 100% knowledge. There is no science in celiacs and sinus headaches, but many celiacs report them.

Our knowledge of food is super limited. Our medicine is super limited when it comes to auto immune disorders.

My headaches don't exist according to science, but I dealt with them for 23 years and figure out a fix. Keep your mind open a bit, we don't have everything figured out and people's experiences are very real.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by originalsimba on Sunday March 04, 2018 @01:27PM (#16515788)
"Our knowledge of food is super limited."

You mean your knowledge. The scientific world knows a lot about how food works and what it does to the human body. It could know more, but because our medical research is driven by profit motive instead of "the greater good", food research is low on the totem pole. The interference of corporations such as the subject of this story certainly hasn't helped the situation.

For example, General Mills is probably the most guilty single-party with regards to the diabetes and obesity epidemic, but nobody is holding them responsible. We should be. If corporations and their executive leadership were punished for the terrible things they do to our civilization, they would possibly take care to be more responsible in the future.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by meej on Monday March 12, 2018 @09:13PM (#16573144)
I'm a bit late here, but I am wondering if you've considered the possibility that your sinus headaches are actually migraines? The two are often confused because they present similarly, and it is believed amongst headache and migraine experts that most so-called sinus headaches are actually migraines. It would explain the MSG trigger, too.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by miek on Sunday March 04, 2018 @01:59PM (#16515956)
I am guessing that you've been tested for Celiac. If not, see my post from a few months back; i had a hyper sensitivity to gluten for over 3 years and found a fix: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15699841
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by TACIXAT on Sunday March 04, 2018 @07:25PM (#16517749)
That's awesome that you got that cleared up.

I have (had?) fructose malabsorption. I could digest sugar fine, but high fructose foods (HFCS, apples) not so well. My theory is being celiac my body attacked my small intestine and messed up digestion there. It could have been a gut bacteria problem, but I saw that more as a symptom of the underlying disease.

I didn't even mind that part so much. Sinus headaches were killing me. I thought I had brain cancer. Cutting out foods that trigger those has been my quest over the last 5 years and I have a pretty good handle on it now. Apparently chronic sinusitus is common in celiacs and it's pretty understudied. [1]

1. http://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/coeliac-disease-sinusiti...

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by jonahx on Saturday March 03, 2018 @02:53PM (#16511205)
Is it possible to find legitimately nitrate-free bacon in the US? If so, under what brand?
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by hammock on Saturday March 03, 2018 @03:08PM (#16511288)
No. Bacon, salami and some other meats must be cured by FDA definition (either nirites added and sold as "cured" or sold as "uncured" but with "celery juice" which really means it's still cured)

Confusing I know

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tptacek on Saturday March 03, 2018 @04:40PM (#16511762)
Not only is meat cured with celery extract still cured, but it probably has more nitrates than "artificially" cured meat, since if you're using powdered nitrate salt, you can add precisely the amount you need.

Generally: if it tastes like what you expect ham or bacon to taste like, or it looks like what you expect it to look like, it's cured with nitrates. Nitrates have a powerful effect on flavor and color.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by jonahx on Saturday March 03, 2018 @10:31PM (#16513114)
> Generally: if it tastes like what you expect ham or bacon to taste like, or it looks like what you expect it to look like, it's cured with nitrates.

So you are saying that even if I got my own raw pork belly from the butcher and learned how to cure it properly with salt, its look and taste would still be inferior to the delicious blocks of bacon I get at any chain grocery store?

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tptacek on Saturday March 03, 2018 @10:42PM (#16513142)
It won't taste "hammy" without nitrates. It won't be bad. Everything tastes better cured.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by batbomb on Saturday March 03, 2018 @05:02PM (#16511905)
That's not entirely true. It must be cured, but it doesn't necessarily need nitrites to cure it.

You can buy salt cured bacon here: https://shop.bentonscountryham.com/ProductDetails.asp?Produc...

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tptacek on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:06PM (#16512485)
Benton's is great bacon, but:

(1) You can look at that price tag and see why it's unlikely to be your go-to bacon,

(2) Last I checked, Benton's used a nitrate cure, and

(3) Seriously, intensely smoked food (Benton's bacon qualifies) is probably going to be more carcinogenic from the smoking compounds than from the cure. Unlike nitrate->N-nitrosamine, we're pretty clear on how smoked food causes gastric cancer.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by subpixel on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:23PM (#16512551)
If you live near a large enough community of former Yugoslavians, you can find nitrate-free Suho Meso, which (when it's good) is like a cross between bacon and prosciutto. However, it contains all the carcinogens of smoked meat. That said the largest brand in the US (US-produced, actually) is not nitrate-free.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by mastax on Saturday March 03, 2018 @03:16PM (#16511328)
I was going to suggest uncured bacon, but it looks like even superorganic uncured bacon has celery powder[1]. I guess nationally-distributed refrigerated meat products need more preservative than just low levels of salt. I'd suggest buying "pork belly" from a butcher. A good butcher should have more fresh product and be able to answer questions about preparation.

[1]: http://applegate.com/products/organic-sunday-bacon

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by emodendroket on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:21PM (#16512534)
You don't need to go to a special butcher. Asian groceries usually have pork belly and you're seeing it at more and more "normal" supermarkets too. The problem, though, is that it tastes nothing like bacon.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by Lazare on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:33PM (#16512362)
It is possible! However keep in mind: 1) It'll look completely different than normal bacon 2) It'll taste very different than normal bacon. 3) It'll be more likely to give you botulism. 4) It'll be no less likely to give you cancer.

All of which helps explain why it's so hard to find. :)

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by mrfusion on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:54PM (#16512442)
Where do you get 4) from?
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by Lazare on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:33PM (#16512599)
I should have said "may" I guess. However...

There is an ongoing debate over what actually causes the observed cancer increase from eating (some) meats, and which meats it applies to. Some studies suggest the issue is red meat in general, not cured meats; others focus on a more vague "processed meat" category. (This is made even more confusing by the US habit of selling cured meats labelled as "uncured", which was touched on in the article.)

We do know that nitrites can turn into cancer causing chemicals, but we also know that they do so in low quantities, and that a lot of things in our diet contain nitrites. The "cured-labelled-as-uncured" American bacon gets its nitrites from celery, which contains a lot, yet celery doesn't seem to be causing a lot of cancer. There are some vague theories about how "nitrites in plants are special!", but so far, every attempt to study that has shown the reverse as far as I'm aware.

So in my view, the situation is confusing, but there is certainly evidence that bacon causes cancer. What I don't really buy is the idea that it's obviously the nitrites. It's great that parma hams are made without them, but there's no study (nor is there likely to ever be a study) that says "good news, eating parma hams has 0% impact on your risk of cancer". Especially since they probably do give you cancer, if all the studies showing links to red meat are borne out.

But eh. Maybe it does lower your risk. :) But I think if I was worried about it, I'd skip all bacon, given how nonexistent the evidence is to suggest nitrite-free bacon is actually healthy.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by sgtcodfish on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:47PM (#16512415)
The article linked in this post directly addresses (3) as being an absolute non-issue spread by FUD, and the whole article is about (4) being very probably untrue.

It also goes into solid detail on the extent of (1) and (2), neither of which seem particularly groundbreaking.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by emodendroket on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:22PM (#16512537)
I didn't find the dismissal of botulism risk entirely persuasive. Botulism may be rare but it is really lethal.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by TaylorGood on Saturday March 03, 2018 @02:56PM (#16511218)
Basically remove bacon, chorizo etc. from your life. Heavier meats I tend to avoid, but my girlfriend loves the first two. Read her excerpts of the articles last night and it made for an awkward bedtime. It's not that I seek these types of warnings, but given how often she uses bacon in meals it was a must to share..
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by umanwizard on Saturday March 03, 2018 @03:08PM (#16511290)
If your girlfriend wants to trade vastly increased life satisfaction for a slightly higher risk of developing one of the slowest-growing and most treatable cancers, I say let her.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by bamdoggle on Saturday March 03, 2018 @04:46PM (#16511800)
In the article, the author discusses a number of other cancers (breast, brain...) that nitrosamines cause. Colon and rectal cancers are the most prevalent, but not at all the only ones. And... quality prosciutto and other pork belly products can be obtained from most local butchers without nitrites or nitrates, so you can avoid these things and still live very happily indeed with salty pork.

Also, the results of nitrosamines happen faster than I believe you expect from what you posted. Colon and rectal cancers have been on the rise for decades.

So, I see your point, but it's an uglier problem than I think you realize and there are some easy solutions available.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by your-nanny on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:55PM (#16512449)
Yeah, not enough emphasis on absolute risks here.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Saturday March 03, 2018 @04:47PM (#16511806)
"Vastly increased" is subjective at best and sounds like a bad excuse. I was "Paleo" for years and decided to try mostly plant based recently. As background I smoked my own bacon and had 1-2 eggs that accompanied it every morning for years.

I haven't eaten meat since Jan 1 of this year as an experiment in blood panel results, body fat, and general "feel" of abandoning meats. I was already mostly dairy free (don't consume animal milks with the exception of purchased baked goods or cheeses - a few times a week at worst) for over 7 years.

If you haven't tried a shift toward a plant based diet, I would argue you have no clue. Because I didn't. Giving meat up is actually easier than things like cheese as an example.

I lost 10lbs of body fat in a month (5'11 @ 175 --> 165) and increased strength in January. I also improved all blood panel markers by a minimum of 15% (WellnessFX). But the best part is the subjective part: overall feel. I feel much better, more consistently and more often on mostly plant based. Things within my pallette have changed quickly.

Dr. Greger's "How Not to Die" has helped in some of the education and all the references to studies relating. Cooking, however is a fundamental shift from Paleo so that is one of the hardest parts you have to focus on right away. I had so many recipes I loved and became frustrated early finding alternatives. However after 2 months I'm enjoying cooking with new foods and techniques. I've picked up about a dozen new cookbooks and have learned a lot in short order.

Overall, again, I feel your statement is unfounded and I'd suggest for those interested in improving their health to try slow shifts to more plants. There's only upside and there are many studies in support of.

The final piece of it is our planet. Animals raised for meat production requires excessive energy and waste. Beyond that most of our meat supply chain is riddled with things such as E Coli (supported in many recent studies - as an example of the many: https://www.asm.org/index.php/mbiosphere/item/6219-connectin...).

TL:DR Don't miss meat after giving it up. Those who say it adds "value" without actually trying don't have basis to support their claim.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by allthenews on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:52PM (#16512433)
>Those who say it adds "value" without actually trying don't have basis to support their claim

Please, speak for yourself. Some of us have enough trouble find a variety of food to eat without such restrictions. It is actually insulting to be told that radically changing my diet as an unintentional lifelong picky eater is some trivial exercise.

Furthermore it is arrogant to judge value so certainly on behalf of strangers. Put frankly, who are you to tell me what I do and don't like?

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by SirZimzim on Sunday March 04, 2018 @12:12PM (#16515420)
Looks like the picky eater issue runs a bit deeper for you if you take such offense. I am a picky eater who has taken to eating many newer foods the past 5 years. It truly is as trivial as just doing it. You may gag at some stuff but as with everything in life, if you don't even try to push through it then what can you expect.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:11PM (#16512727)
There was no basis provided. I didn't judge anyone and have tried many diet changes over the years in my quest to better understand food, nutrition and health. I didn't tell anyone to do anything but made the simple suggestion that plant based has made marked improvements in areas for me and that there are no downsides to increasing plants in diet.

Did I ever try to tell you what you should like? Nope. Get a grip.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by bitcoinboi9 on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:21PM (#16512532)
I don't think he told you anything. He wrote something and you read it.

There's also mentions of "slow shifts" and similar, indicating that the change of your diet is not radical and sudden, but gradual and slow.

Picky eaters have a somewhat disease and should try to incorporate variety. Otherwise you risk black swans by eating practically the same thing all your life. Eating many ingredients is antifragile :D

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by shirro on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:47PM (#16512819)
Dr Gregor references genuine studies and provides some good nutritional advice but he is fundamentally opposed to foods derived from farming animals as are many Internet commentators who come out of the woodwork when there is any controversy around meat and health.

I don't doubt his good intentions and I think he attempts to be balanced and use science to back his arguments. But he clearly starts from the position that meat is bad as I think perhaps you do. And perhaps it is. But I would prefer to see that established without prejudice.

If you have an ethical problem with eating meat then don't eat it. But I get a little tired of people proselytising as a result of becoming born again vegans.

As for curing meat. As you say meat can be dangerous to consumer due to contamination. I would rather a slightly elevated risk of cancer from moderate use of nitrate cured meats than near certain death from botulism or some other nasty. I really would like to see a safer alternative become commercially available but I don't want to be second guessing the microbial safety of my cold cuts. I rarely eat bacon but cold cured meats with salad are a relatively important part of my diet as cooking in our kitchen heats the house too much during the warmer months.

I think the big problem with meat, as with the sugar epidemic, is overconsumption. If every meat eater ate meat in moderation as part of a balanced diet there would be far less environmental impact and animal cruelty than creating a small number of vegan converts. Red meat consumption has certainly dropped in Australia though chicken has offset some of that.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by emodendroket on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:23PM (#16512548)
> Dr. Greger's "How Not to Die" has helped in some of the education and all the references to studies relating.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, you may buy yourself some years with virtuous living, but you are still going to die. It's worth considering whether you want to give up all your small temporal pleasures.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:15PM (#16512741)
The point is not baseless longevity. It's to live healthy longer. I have no delusion I won't die. But I have seen people die unhealthy and suffer. My goal is to maximize health overall.

Did I state longevity was my goal? No. "Temporal pleasures" are subjective. And you're conflating your tastes with mine incorrectly. I stated I ate a lot of meat, and enjoyed it. I don't miss it having cut it out. That was very surprising to me and I'm simply sharing thoughts. I also suggested if you haven't tried it, how would you know? You don't. Plain and simple.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by emodendroket on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:31PM (#16512781)
No, but you cited a book whose title suggests a premise I have issues with.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Sunday March 04, 2018 @09:21AM (#16514796)
So what you're saying is you have a problem with a book that has thousands of peer reviewed studies as references. Your only argument is still completely subjective.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by emodendroket on Sunday March 04, 2018 @02:49PM (#16516271)
Is there some objective way to answer the question of how much we should be willing to sacrifice for greater longevity? It's entirely a values question.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Monday March 05, 2018 @02:54PM (#16523832)
The flaw in your argument is you paint a very broad assumption by stating that anyone has to "sacrifice" anything to begin with.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tytytytytytytyt on Saturday March 03, 2018 @05:43PM (#16512121)
> I lost 10lbs of body fat in a month (5'11 @ 175 --> 165) and increased strength in January.

You're telling us all this without mentioning what kind of exercise regiment you're on?

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:35PM (#16512367)
Nothing has changed so I'm not sure the significance. It's mainly 5-8 miles per week of running, body weight exercises, free weights a few times per week and meditation. This, also, has been replicated in studies.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by riku_iki on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:29PM (#16512580)
Keto people, who supposedly eat a lot of meat and bacon also claim weight loss with references to studies. So, there may be many parallel roads.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Saturday March 03, 2018 @07:35PM (#16512604)
I've done rounds of Keto while "Paleo" as well. The difference is in the overall nutrition. Meat, outside of protein, is weak per calorie when compared to complete nutrition. It's also higher, per calorie, with regard to negative health aspects depending on the type and cut of meat.
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by riku_iki on Sunday March 04, 2018 @12:33AM (#16513426)
and what is your current source of protein, after you cut of meat?
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by windexh8er on Sunday March 04, 2018 @09:29AM (#16514811)
The protein argument is probably one of the worst of the food uneducated. I could flip your argument and ask about actual nutrition. What vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc does meat provide? Very few.

Protein? Peas, quinoa, beans, nuts, tempeh, leafy greens, seeds, and the list goes on. The difference is something like quinoa is that, compared to any meat, it is calorie for calorie more nutritionally complete.

Finally why are you focused on protein to begin with? And how much protein is required for you daily? Overconsumption of has shown negative effects:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4045293/

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by riku_iki on Sunday March 04, 2018 @11:25AM (#16515239)
> What vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc does meat provide?

But this can be fixed by one multivitamin pill, correct?

> Finally why are you focused on protein to begin with?

My belief is that you need certain amount of protein, if you are highly engaged into sport activities. Maybe it is not very educated belief of course.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by riku_iki on Sunday March 04, 2018 @01:37PM (#16515844)
Also your situation of losing 10 lbs per month doesn't look sustainable in long term, and likely result of some significant calories cut or metabolism stress. But what will happen after body burn all fat? Keep posting )
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by paulie_a on Saturday March 03, 2018 @03:26PM (#16511371)
>Read her excerpts of the articles last night and it made for an awkward bedtime.

I hate to break it to you, but your relationship is already over.

Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by xkcd-sucks on Sunday March 04, 2018 @12:09PM (#16515405)
Does raw/sauteed celery have a similarly high nitrate content? That seems like a much bigger issue than bacon, which most people eat sparingly
Re:The risk of nitrites and nitrates in bacon by tptacek on Saturday March 03, 2018 @04:12PM (#16511612)
There is no such thing as "nitrate free".