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Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by phkahler on Friday February 23, 2018 @01:46PM (#16448349)
This suggests exactly what I've been thinking about these things, but I'd go one step further than this:

>> Accordingly, we hypothesize that certain ASD risk alleles were under positive selection during human evolution due to their involvement in neurogenesis and cognitive ability.

I don't think they "were under positive selection", I think they still ARE. So many people like to think that humans evolved to our present state and then act like the process has stopped. The wording here echos that a bit.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by mjburgess on Friday February 23, 2018 @01:53PM (#16448399)
Well "were" doesnt preclude "are". To say "are" however requires a whole set of other evidence much harder to obtain.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by craftyguy on Friday February 23, 2018 @05:40PM (#16450244)
Why do you think evolution has decided to stop with us after running for several billion years on at least one planet in the universe?
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by acomar on Friday February 23, 2018 @05:52PM (#16450331)
That's not what they're saying. The point is that it's easier to say something about the past with the benefit of hindsight than to say something about on-going action. How would you prove that positive selection for these traits exists right now? What kind of evidence would that take?
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by craftyguy on Saturday February 24, 2018 @03:14PM (#16455130)
I see, yea I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by cryptonector on Friday February 23, 2018 @05:57PM (#16450363)
The question is whether some specific genes are still being selected for, and the answer is not obvious, though it's a good bet that if they were, and if we're seeing a rise in incidence, then they are.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by jaredhansen on Friday February 23, 2018 @01:55PM (#16448415)
>I don't think they "were under positive selection", I think they still ARE. So many people like to think that humans evolved to our present state and then act like the process has stopped. The wording here echos that a bit.

Nobody thinks the process has stopped. The argument instead is that the environment has changed over time, and some traits that once increased the organism's odds of reproduction relative to peers no longer have that effect.

Whether those with "certain ASD risk alleles" tend to have more or fewer children than those without is an empirical question, but I certainly wouldn't be shocked to find that the fitness benefits to "neurogenesis and cognitive ability" have declined.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by wycs on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:09PM (#16448525)
>Whether those with "certain ASD risk alleles" tend to have more or fewer children than those without is an empirical question, but I certainly wouldn't be shocked to find that the fitness benefits to "neurogenesis and cognitive ability" have declined.

Getting very near indisputable now:https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/selection/2017-kong.pdf

The decline is actually quicker than you would think, TBH. Cognitive ability decreases reproductive fitness in this environment in women but not in men, so I imagine the decline will halt once we reach some sort of equilibrium, assuming dimorphism isn't possible quickly. I imagine selecting for dimorphism in this trait, though it would happen eventually, would take too long to matter.

Not too worried as "unnatural selection" will overwhelm this small effect shortly.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by hnaccy on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:17PM (#16448586)
So Idiocracy was right?
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by ergothus on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:23PM (#16449217)
Idiocracy did a fantastic job of summarizing one aspect. Unfortunately we don't have an equally memorable option to cover the other aspects.

Idiocracy assumes not just more education = fewer kids = more wealth, but also more kids = increased odds of reproduction and that these traits are reliable across generations.

We've proven more education -> fewer kids, and more wealth -> more education. So far as I know, we've not proven or disproven fewer kids -> more education, more education -> more wealth, and more kids -> increased net reproduction, at least not across enough generations.

Certainly these SEEM reasonable conclusions, and some have only been proven in the short-term. It might be that more kids -> less wealth -> less education -> net loss of reproduction. e.g. having 12 kids does give you more chances to push your genes to later generations, but the odds for each kid to get to reproduce are not the same as if there were fewer kids. If that difference is big enough then too many kids is a losing strategy. (in agrarian economies children are a resource, but if children can't work, the odds of the entire families' genes passing on are reduced for every new child past a certain point)

Idiocracy also assumes that intelligence is highly hereditable and highly correlated to wealth - In reality that connection is far fuzzier (likely technically true, but at such a low degree that environmental factors can easily matter more)

Still though - it was an amazingly effective communication of a complex topic. And I'll admit that there are news stories I read that stir my hindbrain into hear the little "bloop" noises of adding to the family tree from that scene.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by danieltillett on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:50PM (#16449488)
Intelligence (g) is highly hereditable on the right hand side of the bell curve. Where non-shared environment (there is no measurable shared environmental component to g) is on the left hand side where people can end up with a g below their genetic potential.

Basically it is relatively easy for the environment to push an individual below their potential, but near impossible to pull them above once a basic minimum is met.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by losteric on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:54PM (#16449527)
Social stratification factor also needs to be factored into that equation.

Intelligence might correlate with wealth in societies with free markets... but lower classes in a stratified society won't have access to resources that translate intelligence into success.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by 52-6F-62 on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:21PM (#16449187)
Come now, Mike Judge was a physicist and a programmer—not a biologist!
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by guelo on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:19PM (#16448608)
There's less selection pressure now because there's less mortality. A lot of people get to pass on their defective genes now that would not have been able to a couple hundred years ago.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by lalaland1125 on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:58PM (#16448931)
There is huge selection pressure now in that many people don't even have kids. Any gene (or other inheritable trait like culture) which increases the probability of having kids will be strongly selected for.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by danieltillett on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:53PM (#16449518)
In rich countries the selection pressure is greater than at anytime in human history. In the past no factor (other than luck) could strongly influence the number of children you had survive to adulthood as much as birth control does.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by maratd on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:37PM (#16448734)
> There's less selection pressure now because there's less mortality.

There are two pathways to selection. You're only focusing on one. Sexual selection is alive and well.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by mnw21cam on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:52PM (#16448862)
Have you ever seen the film "Idiocracy"?
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by spamizbad on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:03PM (#16449006)
Are you familiar with the Flynn Effect?
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by mnw21cam on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:15PM (#16449138)
Which seems to have stopped over the last 20 years or so.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by danieltillett on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:56PM (#16449552)
…and which only ever applied to the low g fraction anyway.
[dead]
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by sctb on Friday February 23, 2018 @06:26PM (#16450525)
We've already asked you to please follow the guidelines or don't post. Could you please read them and then start commenting civilly and substantively?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by pmichaud on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:30PM (#16448684)
There are still relatively strong effects. Whatever genes are statistically linked to things like less education, for example, are flooding the gene pool relative to others. There are plenty of dimensions like this.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by rdlecler1 on Friday February 23, 2018 @04:25PM (#16449765)
Evolution relies on differential reporoductive success. You’d need to show those with the alleles are having more offspring and I’m not sure this would be the case in modern society with our low birth rates especially amongst highly educated portions of the population.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by atmanthedog on Friday February 23, 2018 @07:15PM (#16450768)
That is true at the entire-species level assuming a uniform selection pressure against the entire species. However, evolution also occurs when a species adapts specific traits to fill an environment niche. Traits can still be selected for when the trait involved allows the organism to compete for a different set of resources. Humans also do not reproduce randomly. Currently, it is widely accepted in the Western world that people get to choose who they have children with, and that choice can select for similar traits. Marriage customs in other cultures are different, but still can have an effect on trait selection. For example, the royal families of Europe positively selected for some fairly harmful traits (like hemophilia), because other traits (already belonging to the family) were also being positively selected for filling the niche of royalty.

Consider something like a "Highlander" allele, that has a chance to randomly appear in the general population, granting them the same stipulations as in the movie. Given that there can be only one, this particular allele has terrible reproductive success in the sense that practically no offspring will ever survive. However, the gene will always tend to exist in the population. Now, if there is some event that occurs that increases the maximum of number of Highlanders, this event will put positive selection pressure on the allele, even though the general population can reproduce much faster.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by danieltillett on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:45PM (#16449437)
The demographics of the educated middle classes would suggest that nothing that contributes to making you middle class is under positive selection anymore.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by cryptonector on Friday February 23, 2018 @05:57PM (#16450372)
Explain?
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by danieltillett on Friday February 23, 2018 @06:25PM (#16450515)
The most effective way to stop people having children in the modern world is to educate them and provide them with a middle class job. Any genetic trait that contributes to making it more likely for you to become educated or acquire a middle class job is going to become less frequent in the population now.
Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by cryptonector on Friday February 23, 2018 @07:00PM (#16450693)
Another very effective way to stop people having children is to given them heavy retirement and old age medical care subsidies -- without having to depend on children for one's retirement / old age, one will have fewer children.

All that said, fertility rates among the middle class are not zero. They may be below replacement rate (ok, they are below replacement rate), but being non-zero means evolution still applies.

Also, obviously in the wider population (that is, world-wide) we might well be selecting against traits that lead to middle-class status (by having lower fertility rates in the middle-class), but still, within middle-class populations we're likely still selecting for those traits.

Re:Signatures of positive selection in autism spectrum disor... by danieltillett on Saturday February 24, 2018 @01:43AM (#16452094)
Yes evolution still applies.

Unless the middle class is a separate population to the rest of humanity then the evolution that is happening in the human population right now is selection against traits that lead to being middle class.

This selection is probably the strongest of any in human history looking at the demographic trends. When looked at dispassionately it is truely breath taking how huge this is.