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Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Saturday February 17, 2018 @02:01PM (#16402099)
> As for Huls, he is finishing up his fellowship at the hospital this summer. Wherever he ends up, he is certain he will find new cases to challenge his curiosity, cases he hopes to solve.

No, he won’t, because only early stage residents are given the freedom from economic realities to spend hours digging and thinking through records. Docs aren’t paid for their time, nor even for results - and their employers (read: hospitals) have no intention of going into the red.

Do note the key to this diagnosis wasn’t finding a brilliant or deeply experienced path: it was about putting it into the hands of a curious trainee, who had the time to chase that curiosity.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it many times in the future: when it comes to complex patients, there’s enormous value in chucking insurance out the window and just paying the doc for their time. A moderately clever doc afforded more than 7 minutes to work on a case can solve a lot of problems.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by ianai on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:47AM (#16405814)
Is there a way to actually request a specific doctor have some time dedicated to figuring your case out at your expense? i.e. "Please do more troubleshooting for me above what insurance pays."

I like your idea - but I fear the industry might have already ruled it out.

-edit- Granted, I've done this in my own life by going to specialists at their own offices/outside of a hospital or medical group.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:54AM (#16405849)
Unfortunately, no. Your doctor is contractually bound to the insurer’s fee structure; they can’t take an extra penny off of you. You’d have to go to someone that doesn’t take your insurance at all (or just don’t tell them you have that insurance).

The side effect of all this, honestly, is that doctors stop learning how to turn off 7-minute-mode. When it comes to very serious problems, it pays to go to a practice that doesn’t accept insurance at all, because they never got into the bad habit to begin with.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by Alex3917 on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:12AM (#16406679)
> You’d have to go to someone that doesn’t take your insurance at all

There are some doctors at teaching hospitals who specialize in diagnosing rare diseases and don't take insurance for this reason.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jessaustin on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:54AM (#16406593)
You're right that it's difficult for physicians to "turn it off". The contractual requirements you reference, however, are basically unenforced. The only way a physician will get "caught" charging more than agreed is if the patient calls the insurer to complain. Presumably you wouldn't do that to her after she saved your life.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by netheril96 on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:32AM (#16406769)
> Presumably you wouldn't do that to her after she saved your life.

Oh, you grossly underestimate what people are capable of. At least in China there are many reported cases of such horrible patients. Maybe US being a developed country have fewer these people, but definitely not zero.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jessaustin on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:20PM (#16407325)
You're right of course, and this isn't limited to the Chinese. It's best to have physicians in the family; marry one if there isn't one already! This isn't practical for everyone, so perhaps it's best to choose a capable young physician early in life, so that by the time such trust is required it has already formed.

Probably there are other professions in which one gets better service if one has an inside connection, but this situation really speaks ill of how medicine is practiced.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:47PM (#16407460)
> Probably there are other professions in which one gets better service if one has an inside connection, but this situation really speaks ill of how medicine is practiced.

Having a doc in the family is a mixed blessing at best. You can get priority treatment, and the benefit of your family members full attention. On the flip side, all the docs I know that aren’t fools or morons don’t treat their own family for anything more serious than a scrape. You’re biased, you don’t want the guilt of an error, and you don’t want to be the bearer of bad news. I frequently ask my wife not to ask me about her mother’s health developments; I’d rather tell comforting lies than be a source of sour truth.

Being a VIP in a medical center due to your relatives gets you more ass kissing, not better care. People don’t want to step on toes, or give the impression that useful care is being withheld. And if your relative is a worse doc than the one you’re seeing? No one is going to overrule your family member to your face.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by nitrogen on Sunday February 18, 2018 @02:24PM (#16407717)
The value I would see in having a physician as a close relative is in learning how to communicate effectively with other physicians. Then one could in theory need fewer visits to their own doc to get to the bottom of a problem.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @02:54PM (#16407970)
That’s actually a problem. When I myself see a doc, I make a point of being as colloquial about it as possible. Part of our training is about taking what people say and converting it into technical symptoms; when people start to “communicate effectively” it heavily biases us towards certain diagnoses. The more intelligent/educated the patient the more likely we are to take one of their word choices at face value.

Personally, all I ever want from a patient is a clear timeline of events, their best attempt to articulate what they felt, a list of scripts, and old medical records (especially imaging.) The patient that can give me that has made the task of helping them 1000x easier.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by ianai on Sunday February 18, 2018 @03:43PM (#16408438)
That’s really helpful to know.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:42AM (#16406817)
> Presumably you wouldn't do that to her after she saved your life.

I wish that were so, but disease is not confined to the reasonable, the rational, the kind, the respectful, or the grateful. On the contrary, the stress of disease and it’s associated burdens (social, financial, psychological, etc) tends to diminish those qualities in even the best of us.

Harvard did a huge study on malpractice suits a while back. They found that most medical errors that caused the death of a loved one did not result in suits, and most suits did not originate from medical errors. That is to say, the good or ill you do a patient isn’t the reason they sue.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday February 18, 2018 @09:08AM (#16406129)
Almost makes the red envelope culture in Chinese hospitals seems appealing.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by imron on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:42AM (#16406521)
Not at all.

Having to slip the doc and the anaethetist a red envelope and hoping it's the enough that they'll take proper care of you is not a good system to live under.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by erric on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:21AM (#16406421)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_envelope

I’d never heard of this before.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jotm on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:51AM (#16406575)
Lol, that's exactly life in Eastern Europe/ex-USSR. There's socialized medicine, but if you want better service, you have to bring a gift (whisky, chocolate, money, the latter is always desirable). Not just hand cash over, that's disrespectful nowadays.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by linkmotif on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:48AM (#16406852)
My grandmother was a pediatrician in Kiev in Soviet times. Her salary was about on par with anyone else, but she got tons of gifts.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by twic on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:43AM (#16406530)
On the situation in hospitals specifically:

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/the-red-envelope-capita...

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by goblins on Sunday February 18, 2018 @12:29PM (#16407081)
Glad I live in a country with a free health service.
[dead]
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jacquesm on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:14PM (#16407285)
Did you really link 'free healthcare' with 'a country that does not pay doctors'?

Clearly healthcare can be free to the recipients while doctors still get a good salary.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:50PM (#16407480)
Most countries with free healthcare do have woefully underpaid doctors. The NHS has been cutting back aggressively on doc salaries for years, letting them fall well behind inflation.

The only thing I can say in their defense is that at least docs in those countries don’t generally take on massive, private, un-dischargeable debt in order to do the job. In the US we treat the medical workforce as a public good, though they have to take on all the risk of entering that workforce through private financing.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jessaustin on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:48PM (#16407467)
I get to drive on most roads without paying, but I wouldn't say that the roads are "free"?
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jacquesm on Sunday February 18, 2018 @02:01PM (#16407548)
Compared to toll roads they are free...
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jessaustin on Sunday February 18, 2018 @03:07PM (#16408113)
We've uncovered a potential ambiguity in the original phrasing of "free health service". Could the now-dead response to that comment have been highlighting this very ambiguity?
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by sowbug on Monday February 19, 2018 @12:12AM (#16410906)
Yes, I've done this. I paid an out-of-network specialist for a second opinion on a cancer treatment. My HMO ended up following that specialist's recommendation. While I likely would have survived either treatment, this one was shorter and had fewer long-term side effects. I paid for the consultation out of pocket. It was less than $1,000.

Not that outcome matters much to your question, but I have fewer scars, more original body parts, and better overall body function than I would have had with my HMO's original plan.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by nitrogen on Sunday February 18, 2018 @02:28PM (#16407748)
Some possible search terms that might help (but I don't actually know the answer): concierge medicine, direct primary care, fee-for-service, out-of-network
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by stevenh on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:04AM (#16406650)
Isn't this what concierge doctors offer?
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:45AM (#16406835)
Some. Some push the same old practice model but with reasonably cheap prices, so they can keep their old patient base and make their income off the slightly higher billings and the reduced overhead of eliminating your billing (read: calling the insurer and arguing) staff.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by batter on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:47AM (#16405817)
Why doctor? It's the most expensive part of your healthcare. But it can be trainee/researcher/AI. Which could be absolutely out of expensive healthcare system. Service which you could buy for additional cost from company which has good guess/prediction ratio based on input parameters from doctor. Service which could be in any part of the world.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:56AM (#16405855)
What? The doctor’s visit is the cheapest part of healthcare. Procedures cost far more, and pharm far more again. Perhaps you’re outside of the US, though I can’t think of a country where this isn’t true.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jessaustin on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:58AM (#16406629)
Don't forget diagnostic scans and tests. Those are quite expensive. However GP is proposing a service that doesn't actually exist now: paying a medical expert to spend a lot of time considering a challenging case. It would have obvious benefits, so we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand just because it would be too cheap.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by nitrogen on Sunday February 18, 2018 @02:32PM (#16407776)
There was a now-defunct attempt at this called MetaMed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaMed

I'm curious if any others have succeeded.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by inetsee on Sunday February 18, 2018 @12:35PM (#16407107)
I have often thought that the Freestyle Chess model (a variation of Advanced Chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess ) could be applied to medical diagnosis.

Create a team consisting of one or more human doctors with a medical diagnostic AI.

From the article it sounds to me that a lot of the research could have been done by an AI, with the human doctors making the final decision on the "best" diagnosis.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jdietrich on Sunday February 18, 2018 @02:08PM (#16407599)
The technical term is "clinical decision support system".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_decision_support_syst...

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by curlcntr on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:07AM (#16406375)
There's an analogy here for software and engineering too. Getting to root cause and finding solid solutions - takes curiosity, energy... and time.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by chrisbennet on Monday February 19, 2018 @05:42AM (#16412063)
You know what they call software organizations that don’t have time to do this? “Fast paced”
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by majos on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:18PM (#16407311)
For some time my read on this situation has been that the "doctor shortage" that produces 7-minute diagnoses stems from a restricted number of residency slots, which is set (I believe?) by the federal government. I had thought the AMA was influential in lobbying to keep the number of such slots low to prop up doctors' salaries, but with some research it's unclear how true this is. Anyone know? How strong a lobbying force is the AMA, anyway?
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @01:39PM (#16407418)
The AMA has actually been lobbying quite strongly to expand the number of residency spots. Doctors salaries are generally pushed from the top down by Medicare and not by general supply-and-demand principles. So these shortages don’t lead to salary bumps, they lead to inferior substitutions (expansion of mid-level practice privileges), which actually puts a downward pressure on salary while also providing worse care for the public.

The problem with residency slots is that they’re funded as part of the larger Medicare legislation, and no one wants to push for the bump in funding/taxes for Medicare needed to expand it.

The reason visits are seven minutes long is because part of a trend that started with the HMOs in the 80s. The hypothesis on the part of insurers was that docs have a general target income - that they don’t work at maximum capacity (in general - obviously wonky things happen at the extremes.) If you reduce per-service billing, docs would maintain constant output to hit their personal target income goal. And... that’s exactly what happened. Since then, insurers have continued to hit against per-service fees, and docs and facilities have continued to shrink the time they alot to each service in order to keep afloat. In fairness, docs don’t have an awful lot of flex on this - they have to meet overhead costs which are fixed regardless of how small their reimbursement gets, and even with pitifully short visits doc real earning power has gone down quite a lot in the last 30 years. Docs work about 3x as hard as they used to, for about one third of the real income.

It’s actually a bit scary: there’s not a lot of leeway left in this, and medical education is more expensive than its ever been. Docs carry the financial risk and massive increase in burnout, patients bear the risk of the reduction in time and quality of care, and everyone else is squeezing the juice out of the grapes. Something’s gonna give.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by majos on Sunday February 18, 2018 @06:04PM (#16409406)
Interesting. It seems like I was wrong about the AMA then. Is there a reason that a standalone bill cannot secure federal funding for addition residency slots, or is the stumbling block that increasing the number of residency slots will be expensive (even in federal money terms) regardless of how it's enacted?
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by kenesom1 on Sunday February 18, 2018 @06:37PM (#16409586)
Your comment wasn't wrong. In 1997, The AMA along with five other medical groups lobbied congress to limit the number of medicare-funded residency slots [1, 2]. This limit was enacted in the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 and hasn't changed since then [3]. Hospitals were paid hundreds of millions of dollars to voluntarily reduce the size of their resident training programs [4].

[1] http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-03-01/news/1997060012_...

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/01/us/doctors-assert-there-ar...

[3] https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/13/health/train-more-doctors-res...

[4] http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/24/doctor.glut/

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @06:45PM (#16409628)
You posted this two hours after I replied with a list of google results showing you’re two decades out of date. Now it’s -clear- you’re being disingenuous, but for the life of me I cannot fathom why.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by kenesom1 on Sunday February 18, 2018 @06:59PM (#16409708)
None of this is outdated. You're trying hard to to rewrite history with downvotes.

The 1997 cap on medicare-funded residency slots has remained in place since that time, unchanged despite population growth and an aging population. The current crisis and physician shortage is in large part a result of that two-decades-old legislation which was engineered by the AMA and other major medical groups.

Based on your comment history, you trained as a doctor, which is great and absolutely commendable [1].

However, do you feel compelled to troll and post obviously slanted information due to your personal association with the AMA?

For the record, I think doctors should get paid well and more than they currently do. Clinics should be run by physicians. But allowing guilds like the AMA to artificially restrict the availability of critical healthcare has resulted in millions of avoidable deaths and serious suffering across the entire population.

"The predicted physician shortages will result in decreased access to care for millions of individuals. [...] [A]dding one PCP per 10,000 people would reduce predicted all-cause mortality [...] by 5.31 percent. Translated nationally, this would avert 127,617 deaths." [2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16337410

[2] https://web.stanford.edu/group/sjph/cgi-bin/sjphsite/the-loo...

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by kenesom1 on Sunday February 18, 2018 @03:48PM (#16408484)
"In 1997, a consortium that included the AAMC, the AMA, and other major organizations declared that [...] 'the United States is on the verge of a serious oversupply of physicians'. The consortium recommended limiting the number of residency positions funded by Medicare, a goal that was partially achieved in the Balanced Budget Act of 1997" [1]

See also the 1997 senate finance committee hearings on graduate medical education [2].

[1] http://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/717927

[2] https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/hrg105-901.pdf

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by blakesterz on Sunday February 18, 2018 @09:47AM (#16406284)
I know the Mayo Clinic has a totally different pay structure for docs, maybe there's other places out there like that as well. I think this is why people go there for answers to hard problems. Docs get paid a salary, they then choose how many patients they see, and that's it. I assume that's also why it can be tough to get an appointment there.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @10:06AM (#16406371)
Mayo is a bit of a special case. Guwande hyped their fee structure in comparison to private practice, but it’s largely the same as every hospital: the doctor is an employee with an annual salary, the hospital is reimbursed per unit service by payors. Guwande compared them to private practices, where the doctor acts as his own employer, and thus has to maintain their own volume.

The difference is that given their prestige and the number of out-of-state (read: mostly cash-paying) patients, they get much higher reimbursement than most places and can afford not to push the patient mill so hard. Normal hospitals have a patient base that is mostly insured or, if uninsured, the impoverished kind, not the globe-trotting wealthy kind. So their reimbursement is negotiated with insurers, so... they have to push the mill hard.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by Angostura on Monday February 19, 2018 @08:39AM (#16412774)
Well, I suppose he could end up in a country where health isn’t in the insurance straitjacket
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jstanley on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:44AM (#16405799)
> there’s enormous value in chucking insurance out the window and just paying the doc for their time

I'm sure there's enormous value in chucking economic realities out the window for everyone's job, but that doesn't make those realities go away.

Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by arkades on Sunday February 18, 2018 @08:00AM (#16405868)
You perhaps misread what I wrote. I don’t know how to reply, since I don’t know what it is you think I said. I don’t believe it “throws economic realities out the window” to say that sometimes you need an extended interaction with an expert, and that if you want more than 7 minutes of an expert’s time, you should engage with a reimbursement model that pays for more than 7 minutes. That doesn’t ignore the economic realities of healthcare at large; it’s saying sometimes you need a premium good, and those have premium prices.
Re:Her Various Symptoms Seemed Unrelated, Then One Doctor Pu... by jstanley on Sunday February 18, 2018 @08:13AM (#16405920)
I thought you were proposing just forgetting about insurance and having the doctor's time paid for by magic.