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Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by toyg on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:30PM (#16363375)
Sometimes I wish someone would pass a law that forbid the modern use of brands. If you are a company, anything you control should carry your own name first and foremost. It would remove the illusion of choice that the current market of manufactured goods and food strives to provide in order to avoid organised dissent.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by losteric on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:00PM (#16363566)
Do you mean branding must reflect ownership?

Banning the use of brands obviously won't achieve anything desirable, but requiring transparent branding seems like it will improve the consumer market's spending decisions.

Of course, pro-free-market legislation will never make it through Republican-controlled Congress...

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by hueving on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:22PM (#16363688)
Restricting what brand names people can use is anything but "pro-free-market".
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by rfrey on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:46PM (#16363823)
That wasn't the proposal, the proposal was to enforce better information availability to consumers by displaying the owners of the brand prominently.

IANANC but my understanding is that a true market is two-sided: it requires informed consumers. Initiatives that bolster the buyer-side of the market aren't anti-market.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by underdown on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:14PM (#16364235)
Calling a newly proposed regulation "pro free market" legislation is a little orwellian.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by losteric on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:43PM (#16364345)
How free is a monopolized market? If a regulation outlaws monopolies, does it improve or impede the market's freedom?

Regulations that improve market efficiency are good. Regulations that impede efficiency are bad. In practice, we do need regulations because real-world actors are not optimal rational agents.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by rfrey on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @07:37AM (#16366649)
I can see it from that point of view. I purposely don't use the phrase "free market" though, because I don't share the assumption that complete freedom is what leads to an efficient, well functioning market. There is all sorts of manipulation that is required for a "good" market, i.e. one that fulfills the goal of efficient allocation of goods.

The most basic is the enforcement of contracts, which I think everyone agrees on.

But regulations about truth in advertising fit in there too. Lists of ingredients and nutritional information on packaging are an onerous regulation that allow consumers to make better informed choices (and so lead IMO to a "better" market). (I think brand ownership transparency is close philosophically to requiring ingredients on food products.) There are many examples of regulations that promote market efficiency, which sellers don't like because they may have been making profits from the inefficiency, or from information asymmetry.

There are of course regulations which degrade market efficiency too, either by regulatory capture or ill-thought out "consumer protection" like price controls, rent control, etc.

My overall point is that the assumption that a market with the fewest controls is de-facto the "best" market should be examined closely - manipulations of the market (whether by regulation, taxes, etc.) should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis based on whether they promote or degrade market efficiency.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by swsieber on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:39PM (#16364329)
Okay. How about pro-efficient markets? Because certainly markets completely unrestrained leads to rent seeking.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by lmm on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @07:34AM (#16366628)
The orwellianism already exists in the technical definition of "free market". The proposed regulation would be anti-lassiez-faire, but pro-free-market, to use the terminology that economists have pushed.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by brownbat on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:50PM (#16364363)
> better information availability to consumers

Devil's advocate...

Brands can be a mnemonic that helps customers quickly recall relative quality experienced in previous purchases. This may vary across brands, and my experiences with Dove soap don't tell me anything about my experiences with Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

Brands are often silly and misleading and I try to avoid them, but they aren't inherently malicious by default.

Any medium that can manipulate can also inform.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by losteric on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:39PM (#16364326)
Yes, exactly - informed consumers are one of the requirements for a free market. Agents cannot act rationally when information is obscured.

In this case, the information is technically available but obscured such that consumers cannot make educated purchasing decisions without expending an irrational amount of time... thereby reducing supply-side competition.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by jiggunjer on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:44PM (#16364349)
Even if the information was available, most consumers don't study the entire supply chain of a product or service. We trust legislation to keep poisons out of our foods and punish cartels.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by SAI_Peregrinus on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @01:12PM (#16369304)
Smith's original phrasing wasn't "free market" it was "freely competitive market". They're very different concepts.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by s73v3r_ on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @01:49AM (#16365234)
Depends on how you view “free market.” Some would say that, for a free market to work at all, you need informed choice on the side of consumers. Transparent branding would definitely be included in that.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by philwelch on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:39PM (#16363789)
You'd think so, but Nestle already does this of their own free will and they don't really seem to suffer for it.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by 45h34jh53k4j on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:37PM (#16363419)
I dont know about that, why shouldn't a corporation, effectively a person, use lawful speech to define how the world sees it? If you care enough, it easy enough to be informed about who is producing your food.

I feel this is something like identity politics, and something that really does not need regulation except to allow those to identify however they wish, with no determent to others.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by cstoner on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:42PM (#16363443)
Because a corporation should not be considered "effectively a person".

Corporations are made up of people, yes, but giving them personhood is a pretty dangerous idea. Should they get to vote? Obviously, the answer has to be "no" or else people will register companies to rig elections.

If they can't vote, are they really people?

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wutbrodo on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:33PM (#16363743)
> Corporations are made up of people, yes, but giving them personhood is a pretty dangerous idea. Should they get to vote? Obviously, the answer has to be "no" or else people will register companies to rig elections.

This logic is hugely flawed. Since we work off of a one-person-gets-one-ballot system, grouping people together (as in a corporation) and giving them a vote wouldn't make any sense. By contrast, you can't "use up" your speech rights: Each person is allowed an unlimited amount of legal speech, and I don't think there's a compelling philosophical argument that a group of people speaking together isn't protected. There may be _pragmatic_ arguments, but that's another ballgame altogether, since the entire point of the Constitution is that it's _not_ subject to the pragmatism/whims of the time.

I'm not saying that "corporations should be legally modeled as people" is an ironclad truth, but none of your objections make sense.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by mike741 on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:24PM (#16364007)
the persons in the corporation would not lose their vote. the corporation is just one additional person, meaning someone could create multiple corporate persons and multiply their vote (at least, in OP's hypothetical scenario)
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by jjeaff on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:44PM (#16364095)
I think you misunderstand the argument made by many who say "a corporation is people". "Corporate personhood" is just a word the left uses to make it sound crazy.

In reality, the argument is that you can't restrict a corporation's speech because using a corporation to speak is merely a form or method people use to speak.

You could speak via billboards, grass roots organizations, a radio show, lettets, or even a company you own.

The government can't curtail your speech no matter the method.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by lotharbot on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:19PM (#16364255)
more generally, "corporate personhood" in US law, going back to at least the 1790s and in other countries going back even longer, serves the legal purpose of establishing that when people work together to do something under the "corporate" banner (which allows them to have a succession of members working toward a common goal and pooling resources), they retain rights like speech, property ownership, and ability to enter into or terminate contracts including hiring and firing employees. This connects to the idea (expressed by chief justice Marshall) that "The great object of an incorporation is to bestow the character and properties of individuality on a collective and changing body of men."
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wutbrodo on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @04:13AM (#16365761)
Sheesh I wish I had read your response before posting my own. This more succinctly captures what I'm trying to say.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wutbrodo on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @04:12AM (#16365757)
Right, and that's what I'm saying is flawed logic and a bad analogy for speech rights. Putting people in different groupings doesn't change how many votes they get, and saying that "corporations are people means corporations get their own separate vote" is a gross misunderstanding of what we're talking about. When someone says "corporations are people", they're saying "corporations are simply a grouping of people taking an action together".

The people who comprise a group have no extra vote to give: if two friends and I form a group, a new vote allocated to the three of us doesn't magically materialize. By contrast, since there is no quota for speech per person, two friends and I can form a group (eg, an advocacy group) and tomorrow go down to Union Square (or buy airtime, or hand out pamphlets, or stand on a street corner) and engage in whatever legal speech we like, collectively. The claim is that if that group of people happens to be given the structure "corporation", that doesn't automatically allow for infringing on the rights of the people within the corporation to engage in legal speech.

Again, I'm making no statement as to whether I think this approach is wise or good for society or not, but it's astonishing how common it is to see people who completely don't know what they're talking about on this issue and yet are somehow super passionate about it.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by philwelch on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:48PM (#16363837)
Legal personhood is a concept that applies to ships, cities, states, and countries as well as human beings and corporations. It's a legal fiction that serves specific legal purposes; abandoning the entire concept because you don't think corporations should have the same set of rights as human beings is excessive because different types of legal persons already have different sets of legal rights.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by hueving on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:23PM (#16363699)
>If they can't vote, are they really people?

If they aren't, then what exactly are felons and foreigners?

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by prklmn on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:35PM (#16363761)
It’s a bad analogy. The better is because they don’t breath, don’t have a pulse, and don’t have human DNA, they are not really people, and should not be treated as such.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by grzm on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:49PM (#16363494)
Tying the definition of personhood to voting is problematic. I agree that there should be some distinction between human beings and corporations. I don’t have an answer to what that distinction should be, but I don’t think voting is it.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by pdx on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:44PM (#16363459)
> why shouldn't a corporation, effectively a person...

Why shouldn't a corporation, effectively a person, use the vast wealth at it's disposal to influence elections and steer government policy in the direction it wants?

Hmmm, perhaps we should rethink this whole corporations as persons thing.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by rlkf on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:57PM (#16363542)
Who should determine the will of this corporate-person? The shareholders? The board? The managing director? If I own a stake in an index fund, how do I propagate my will proportionately to the actions of these corporations? Corporate-persons is an area fraught with agent problems, and should therefore not be allowed.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by Retra on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:26PM (#16363710)
If corporations were people, we'd call them people. Don't start an argument on a worthless premise.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by Applejinx on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:24PM (#16363704)
I'd like that. 'Sucralose' is a brand intended to seem like a substance. It's neither a sugar nor an ose: it's C12H19Cl3O8 also known as (1→6)-Dichloro-(1→6)-dideoxy-β-D-fructofuranosyl-4-chloro-4-deoxy-α-D-galactopyranoside. If you burn it at over 662 degrees you get polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxin smoke, which makes sense considering that you make 'sucralose' by a chlorinating process.

I have some nasty reactions to the stuff and so did my late mother, who was a total skeptic to all crunchy-granola pure-foodery. I hate that they can brand a strange chemical like this with the names of natural sweeteners and then we're expected to call it by that name. Though I admit DichlorodideoxyβDfructofuranosyl4chloro4deoxyαDgalactopyranoside is much harder to say, and contains letters that aren't even letters at all.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by prepend on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:38PM (#16363780)
Splenda is a brand. Sucralose is a substance. No TM, no brand any more than bananas is.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by refurb on Monday February 12, 2018 @11:35PM (#16364792)
To add on top of that sucralose is a sugar, just one where 5 oxygen atoms are replaced by chlorine.