News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:35AM (#16266629)
240/hr is a lot of money, especially outside of the valley.

That's not a custom dev rate, that's a you have a track record of doing something very niche and valuable and usually domain specific. I.e. you have a portfolio or set of recommendations that you delivered successful financial plug-ins for oil and gas ERP systems.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ebendogan on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:58AM (#16266850)
Don't believe that shit. I worked through an agency once where I was the subcontractor for several projects. One time the account rep was lazy and sent me the customer's contract and failed to remove the rate he was charging for my work. I was charging $150/hr. He was charging the client $400/hr.

People will pay a premium for something they value. In that instance I actually won out eventually. It turns out the agency was really shitty at managing projects and that particular client got in touch with me directly. He agreed to pay me $400/hr if I gave him priority. I did, and he started referring me to other businesses who would also pay that rate.

So don't kid yourself about how much people will pay.

Edit: These clients weren't in the Bay Area.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:19PM (#16267002)
What do you do?

If you're willing to get someone to pay you 400/hr, I bet you're not billing/marketing yourself as a developer.

And I'm not kidding myself. Most companies know they can get good devs for significantly less than 400/hr.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ebendogan on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:53PM (#16267290)
This was about 10 years ago.

The naive answer I would have given at time was: "I'm a software developer who builds ecommerce and CMS sites."

And it's funny that you ask "What do you do?" At the time I had starting taking on projects from a friend who had been doing development contracting for about 4 years. One time when a client told me my proposal was priced too low and passed on my bid I was baffled.

I told my friend about it and he asked me the same question, and I gave the above answer more or less. He corrected me and said "No! You're businessman enabling a national sales channel for a local or regional business who wants to increase their revenue."

So never define your price by what you do, rather define it by what the value of thing is you're delivering to the client. This requires some research on your clients and a realignment of your thinking. When you're contracting as a developer, you have to start considering yourself as becoming a successful businessperson and not (just) a successful software engineer.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by k__ on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:31PM (#16267652)
You're right, but it is still not easy.

I started charing on a per week and per month basis, which was good because I stopped getting bothered with tiny projects.

Also I could choose how much hours per week I was willing to work, as long as the clients are happy they don't care if it took me 40 hours that week or 20. This also increased my effective per hour payment and my work life ballance.

It is also important to sell yourself with a higher value proposition. If you say "I'm a freelancing front-end dev who does JavaScript" they won't pay you as good as when you say "I'm a mobile consultant, who designs and implements apps", even if you do basically the same thing, people suddendly realize that you are a specialist and not some code monkey...

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by odonnellryan on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:10PM (#16267439)
> And I'm not kidding myself. Most companies know they can get good devs for significantly less than 400/hr.

You can get a great dev for much, much less than $400/hr. You're right. However, should I charge less than that to do a few hours of work for you? Absolutely not.

If I'm doing a small project for a few hours for you I have to charge a lot to cover the business costs.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:28PM (#16267619)
Yeah, the projects I'm pricing out are usually 200-1400/hrs. I can totally see that rate for smaller projects. I imagine utilization rates are a lot harder to keep high with work that granular.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by odonnellryan on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:33PM (#16268222)
Yes absolutely. If I have a client that's going to drop a thousand plus hours into the project they're getting charged a quarter of what someone who just needs me to log in once and a while gets charged.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by chirau on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:19PM (#16268094)
1400/hr ??? What do you do?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by mhb on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:31PM (#16268200)
He's saying that's the length of the project. Not the rate.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by vosper on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:06PM (#16269023)
I know there's an international tax lawyer in SF charging $1250 hour. If you want the big bucks, law's one of the places to get it (provided, presumably, you work hard and are very smart).
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by odonnellryan on Thursday February 01, 2018 @11:54PM (#16288517)
There are people who specialize in arbitration who make 10k+/hr!
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by reificator on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:31PM (#16268206)
I think they mean that that's the estimated time allotted for the project. What they're implying is that they charge less because of it, but if they worked shorter projects, they would likely charge more.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by pjmlp on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:09PM (#16267998)
In Germany, the cheapest rates for consulting usually go around 500 euros a day for the devs plus commission for the agencies.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ransom1538 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:56PM (#16268426)
"240/hr is a lot of money, especially outside of the valley."

Nope. It is close to what I just paid a plumber. The plumber wanted $5000 for 16hrs of work to redo my piping ~$300/hr. (The cost materials: plastic PEX was probably $40, small house a one guy job). Remember this is a residential plumber - not a commercial electrician. WHY SO EXPENSIVE? You might ask? Try outsourcing my plumber.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by gowld on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:00PM (#16268981)
I think you just hired a premium plumber. My guy charges ~$100/hr
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ransom1538 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:13PM (#16269086)
You have a plumber that charges by the hour?? That is awesome. I have only met plumbers that charge per project. Still, your plumber makes 200k a year!
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by jmaygarden on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:17PM (#16271248)
I don't know why you seem surprised. It's not at all unusual for a skilled tradesman to be well compensated.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by hobs on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:40PM (#16269309)
Plumbers do not charge that for forty hours per week.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ransom1538 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:42PM (#16269322)
Agreed. Yes probably more like 60.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:55PM (#16269446)
Yeah I think the other guy is right. That's definitely a premium plumber.

I had my plumber fix a pipe that broke inside the foundation for a $1100. And that involved 8 hrs of 4 guys digging a long and deep ditch, as well as chiseling out foundation.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by fancyfacebook on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:19PM (#16268088)
Not really, I'm trying to hire anyone, even mediocre developers and designers and simply can't get anyone right now on a short term basis even at $300/hr. We're going up to $500/hr soon.

It's really really hard to get people right now. As bad as I've ever seen it.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by AFNobody on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:20PM (#16269142)
"Short term basis" being less than 6 months / 1000 hours?

Yes, you will pay a premium. If you can stretch it to 1k hours or 6 months, you will be able to get cheaper prices. I doubt you'd be paying over $200/hr.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:59PM (#16269487)
What type of projects are you trying to hire for? And how are you trying to hire? I imagine you're not having trouble finding Ruby devs 350/hrs.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by martimoose on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:45PM (#16271110)
Very very hard for me to imagine. I know good designers who'd be willing to work for $40/hr. CAD. Developpers are a bit pricier, maybe 60-70... Can't find mediocre ones for 300? Maybe we don't have the same definition of mediocre. And btw, one year full time at $500/hr is in the vicinity of one million. Where do I sign?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by eclipticwld on Thursday February 01, 2018 @08:26AM (#16281661)
Hey. Drop me a line to email if you need Mobile / Full Stack development. My professional profile on Github https://github.com/EclipticWld
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by dfischer on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @01:27AM (#16271933)
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by thestepafter on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:13PM (#16271227)
I just quit my job as a Software Architect for one of the biggest hosting providers in the US. I am available for short term projects if you are still looking.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by mhb on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:35PM (#16268242)
What do you need done?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by LilyR on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:48PM (#16269372)
Hi, developer and designer here - I'm happy to help if you're happy dealing with a UK based company!
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by TaylorGood on Thursday February 01, 2018 @12:48AM (#16279854)
Where? Let’s chat.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by TomMarius on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:52AM (#16266800)
Well he did base the calculation on a SV yearly salary. For other areas it will be based on a normal salary for that area.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:20PM (#16267017)
I'm in the Houston area, and its easy to make 75-90/hr as a dev. But very hard to charge 300-360/hr as a consultant.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by mason55 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:38PM (#16268267)
I think a lot depends on who your clients are and what your business is. If you're talking about a real professional services engagement (Accenture, Oracle Consulting, whatever) then $300+/hour for an architect-level resource is pretty standard. Hell, junior business analysts get charged out at $175/hour.

As a one-person shop the value you can bring is probably lower because you don't have the synergies of a team and you will have to spend some of your time doing junior BA-type work. You can't charge yourself out at the full rate of an architect-level resource because you're not spending all your time doing architect-level work. However as a one-person shop your overhead should be lower (e.g. no HR people or other cost centers to support with your billings).

$75/hour seems awful low as a 1099/consultant, so it's no wonder businesses are happy to pay that.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by neltnerb on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:42PM (#16267185)
IEEE consultant surveys indicated ~$150/hr for a well trained consultant in software is median last time I checked. But what you get depends on how you get your business and what your approach is to selling your services.

I think I'd find it impossible to charge more than $200/hr for embedded firmware (Boston), but could probably get $400/hr for systems engineering or industrial design to develop an integrated complex solution to a business problem that they don't have the in-house expertise to deal with.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ollerac on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:04PM (#16266896)
I think a lot depends on the situation. There are a lot of companies who would pay a lot of money to have a technical person on their team who follows best practices, doesn't slack off, and is reliable. This is a low bar, but many engineers don't live up to this and end up causing as many problems as they solve, including being hard to manage.

If, as a contractor, you are professional, easy to get a hold of, and treat your work seriously you'd be invaluable to any company who could hold onto you and a lot of hiring managers secretly know this.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:08PM (#16266923)
They also know they're paying a lot of devs 80-150/hr who are hard working, don't slack off, are reliable, and follow best practices. And they have an HR/Invoices department who would constantly harass them about paying that much for a dev, if they even approve it in the first place.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ollerac on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:32PM (#16267113)
Ok, but in this case the contractor should make at least 2x as much the in-house staff, considering they're bringing all their own tools, paying for their own health insurance, paying their own taxes, and having a more flexible schedule.

And then there's the question of why hire a contractor in the first place if you already have a strong team of devs — why not just hire another full-timer? Most likely you're having trouble filling out your team or filling a crucial role. That would probably be worth a little extra to you.

Plus, there are tons of companies out there who don't need a full dev team of a dozen people, but know they could benefit a lot from hiring contractors for 3 months at a time for one-off projects. These companies are more than willing to pay a little extra to get a job done well on short notice.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by tomsthumb on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:31PM (#16268205)
They’re payin the devs that much. That’s not how much they’re paying for the devs.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by taude on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:53PM (#16267296)
We hire huge agencies that don't even cost $240/hour. I'm sure there's a couple niche people who can charge crazy dollars....but I'm skeptical.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by throwawayy2018 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:23PM (#16268675)
FWIW, I charge $300 / hr as a mobile/full stack developer (and I'm based in TX). My clients are mostly startups. I have more work than I know what to do with, and have for quite a while.

Probably raising my rate to $350 soon.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by kofejnik on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:55PM (#16269871)
We have a few smart capable devs (mobile/full stack/etc) who would be happy to help your clients :) email in profile
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ioddly on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:57PM (#16269464)
That's amazing, well done. Where do you meet clients in town?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by throwawayy2018 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:34PM (#16269714)
Thanks! Good question.

Most of my inbound comes through referrals. I've been at this for about 8 years, so my referral network is pretty healthy. First few years were rough though!

In general, the real "trick" to a successful network (as least for me) is just to be friendly and do good work. Lots of coffee meetings, phone calls, and lunches. :)

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by Toast_25 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:06PM (#16269530)
Do you promote yourself? How?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by throwawayy2018 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:36PM (#16269727)
Not at all. I've been at this for a while, so most of my work comes from previous clients or others in my network. It took a while to build that up, but now that it's in place, it's a pretty steady source of work.

Most people who are referred to me know what I charge, so there's not much haggling. People want results and I have a reputation for delivering them.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by TaylorGood on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @12:47AM (#16271756)
How many hours a week are you deciding to work?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by eagsalazar2 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:31PM (#16271063)
Agreed. $400/hr outside of SF Bay, 10 years ago, for CMS and e-commerce websites?? I've hired lots of devs and other agencies in the bay and that does not match my experience at all. For very niche stuff maybe. For freaking WordPress and Shopify, anything more than $175/hr and you are being robbed. For generic custom dev work (iOS, react, backed) $250/hr is near the top for very reputable studios.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by apatters on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @01:33PM (#16276232)
People are charging $175/hr for WordPress? This makes me wonder what the hell have I been doing with myself for the past 8 years. My agency charges $50/hr for WordPress devs who know what they're doing. (My email is in my profile!)
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by muzani on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @02:00AM (#16272094)
Wordpress and shopify are fast. One developer charging $500/hour might be able to do it cheaper overall than developers charging $50/hour.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by TaylorGood on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:03PM (#16267956)
As an Art Director we used three large agencies to cover needs, ranging $140-175/hr. Given this was a finance company, they didn't know creative as much. The issue I discovered was these agencies were inflating service hours. One example was the need to modify a four page powerpoint. Invoice came back as $6,800. So the issue wasn't rate, but durations..
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by jermaustin1 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:44PM (#16268851)
Having worked with agencies through a client, I have seen their billing process. They might not have inflated hours.

Assuming you have a creative, a project manager, delivery manager, and a sales manager in the agency, each task/project has to go through each of their hands.

That's an hour each for the managers and how ever many hours for the actual work itself as the base delivery price. Then the internal back and forth between the delivery manager and the creative to insure that everything is "to spec". Then the project manager to report on status each day and the sales manager to take you to lunch and discuss the how amazing everything is with the project, and that the BEST people are working on it.

So 3-4 hours of work can turn into 20 hours of billing (plus expenses).

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by TaylorGood on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:14PM (#16269100)
Thanks for this. It's true. Our main agency had a process of the Account Exec telling the Art Director who delegated to his team of designers. That is at least three people at varied costs.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by wastedhours on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @07:00AM (#16273196)
Trying to nail this down can be a hair-pulling experience. I know estimations are a ridiculously hard thing to do, but that's kinda the reason I'm engaging them as an expert.

I also know they want all the work you can throw at them, but just getting a sense of whether this is a 1 hour or 5 hour gig so I can evaluate the ROI before briefing it in is impossible.

This is one of the things I want to address (my side-gig doing marketing consultancy) - one rate, whether that's strategy or design work, up to the client how to use it (and telling them to use someone else if not good value).

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by pwthornton on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:13PM (#16269081)
People focus far too much one rate and far too little on output cost.

Different companies are wildly more efficient per hour of work never mind that many just do much better work.

Rates are kind of ethereal. Maybe they are padding. Maybe they are just slow. Maybe they are throwing several resources on it. I don't know.

This is a big problem with procurement. People fixate on hourly costs and not total cost of project.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by S_A_P on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:26PM (#16269196)
Can confirm. Im in Houston and do what you mention with said track record. I cant get 240/hr, but can get around 175-180 most of the time. I base my rate on 85% utilization of myself. meaning Im working 10 and a half months per year.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by ioddly on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:50PM (#16269404)
Do you work with SAP as your username suggests?

That seems pretty good to me for Houston.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by S_A_P on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @12:42PM (#16275713)
I interface with SAP quite often, but the name is a different initialization. I also do movie/tv scoring under the moniker Stupid American Pig. Its a juvenile name that I came up with 20 years ago in college, but Ive not bothered to come up with anything else.

As for the hourly rate, I would always accept more but have no real complaints. Getting back to the original post that made me comment, 240/hr for a freelance web designer seems unrealistically high, especially in Houston. I dont know the market well enough in other parts of the country though.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by mindcrime on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:29PM (#16268183)
It's not that extreme. I was a "big data" consultant a couple of years ago and our bill-rate for gigs I went out on went as high as $200/hr at times. Our clients were all over the US, not just in the SV area, FWIW.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:57PM (#16269885)
Were the people being billed out at 200/hr making 50/hr?
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by mindcrime on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @09:45AM (#16274179)
I'm not sure, exactly. Partly because A. that was a few years ago and I don't remember everything and B. our compensation there was a mixed model that included a base salary along with hourly "bonus" money for billable hours, which varied depending on whether the gig was onsite or remote, etc.

But suffice it to say, if I went out on a gig that was being billed at $200.0 / hr, I wasn't making anywhere close to $200.00 / hr personally.

Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by oreo81 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:18PM (#16266999)
LOL 240/hr is not that much.
Re:How to Work Out What to Charge Clients by JamesBarney on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:21PM (#16267024)
Please share with us your experience.