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Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by masklinn on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:43AM (#16264267)
The SoC timeline is not uninteresting but it's lacking at least one of the major events: Apple switching from ARM-licensed to internally designed cores with the A6. It should also outline the A7 more, that wasn't just Apple's first 64b SoC, it was an industry-wide-first of shipping 64b cores in a product, that took the industry very much by surprise (64b products were planned for 12~24 months down the line before that IIRC).

These are the events which genuinely placed Apple on a serious footing as a chip designer, the A4 was Apple-branded but only a preparatory step.

The essay also lacks other silicon acquisition of Apple, like Intrinsity, whose work actually showed up as early as the A4 (before it was acquired).

It's also oddly padding the timeline with X-variants.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by servitor on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:35AM (#16264480)
I think the A7 being the first 6-wide core in the mobile space was far more important than the fact it was 64 bit. That gave it unprecedented single threaded performance and competitors are struggling to keep pace on that front to this day, despite them also being 64 bit for several generations now.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by simonh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:15AM (#16264958)
It's true that 64-bit wasn't as big a difference in terms of performance or user facing features, but it was an utter humiliation for the rest of the industry.

Nobody could pretend that Apple was not way ahead of everyone else in terms of chip design capability and design sophistication. Right up to that point Samsung and Qualcom had been telling everyone they had all the experience and Apple was a newbie at this chip design stuff that didn't know what it was doing.

All of a sudden they were faced with the reality. If they could do 64 bit a year before anyone else, they could do anything a year before anyone else. They could ship working products that other teams barely had on the drawing board, which means nobody could reasonably predict anything they could do next. How can you design a flagship phone for next year to compete with them, when you have no clue what features are even possible for them to have? That's what it brought to the table.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by tooltalk on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:37AM (#16266646)
why? Did Apple achieve something that was difficult or unexpected?

IIRC, it was Apple who asked Samsung to collaborate with Intrinsity, most known for their FAST tech, to develop the Hummingbird core which was used in both Samsung and Apple's AP's. Only after having tested Intrinsity's tech, Apple acquired it -- so it's a bit stretch to agree with your narrative Samsung didn't see what was coming. Apple also took their time developing and releasing their own first AP about 4 years later. It also seems like while Apple is focusing on the single-core performance as their marketing point, Qualcomm and others are focusing on power-saving, having first implemented multi-core, then octo-cores on their chips. I'm not sure if that's a surprise or unexpected, since Apple's AP remained a single-core AP for a while.

As for the 64bit, was there any compelling reason to go 64bit mobile? I remember when I used to work for wall street banks in the 1990's, the shortcomings of the 32bit arch limited our ability to scale and SUN's UltraSPARC which was widely used by in the industry came to relieve that problem.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by simonh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:20PM (#16267531)
I don't think Intrinsity's tech had much to do with 64 bit, all their work before the acquisition was on 32-bit architectures.

The main attraction for 64-bit ARM is, apart from the obvious future proofing, it has a redesigned and much more efficient ISA. It also has the optional secure enclave feature which Apple used for TouchID and now FaceID. That feature doesn't actually require 64-bit per se, but it is only a feature of the 64-bit ARM architecture. As an aside, is anyone else using it for anything? I'm only aware of Apple using it, but technically it's not an Apple exclusive feature.

Your 'focused on power saving' point is correct as far as it goes, that was their intent, but unfortunately the power saving benefits of BIGLittle turned out to be much more modest and full of caveats than hoped. It turns out that a fast efficient single core that can complete an instruction in less time, then quickly shut down into a power saving mode, is more efficient in power terms for most cases than a slower lower powered core taking longer. As a result Apple's fewer faster cores approach turned out to actually offer better power efficiency as well. Since then Apple has also adopted BIGLittle, it's not a failed technology, it's just that the inflection point when it becomes worth doing was at a very different point than previously realised. Whether thats down to luck or judgement on Apple's part is moot.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by IBM on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:25PM (#16269180)
I'm pretty sure the Secure Enclave is an Apple technology. It's similar to ARM's TrustZone but not the same thing.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by simonh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:14PM (#16270286)
It started off as an implementation of TrustZone but has likely diverged significantly from it since. In any case 64bit ARM had architectural features to support the implementation if such technology. Doing so on 32 bit ARM would have been a huge amount of work, and really not feasible.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by astrange on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @04:12PM (#16277583)
The Secure Enclave never used TrustZone. It's a physically separate processor. (Not that this matters.)
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by tooltalk on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:29PM (#16269675)
No, Intrinsity acquisition was in 2000, years ahead of Apple's first 64-bit release.

> The main attraction for 64-bit ARM is, apart from the obvious future proofing ...

ok

> unfortunately the power saving benefits of BIGLittle turned out to be much more modest and full of caveats than hoped ... As a result Apple's fewer faster cores approach turned out to actually offer better power efficiency as well.

Sure, I'm guessing you are comparing some very early implementation of bigLITTLE by Samsung in 2012 versus Apple's single core. Or are you denying the power efficiency benefit of multi-core architecture in mobile processors (or non-mobile processor for that matter)? It's one thing to criticize Samsung's very early, first and second iterations of big.LITTLE chips in 2012, which was highly workload dependent, but it's completely another to claim Apple's single-core superiority over multi-core power-efficiency, including those non-octo core Samsung AP's. Perhaps you can substantiate this with some references?

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by jsjohnst on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:58PM (#16270736)
> No, Intrinsity acquisition was in 2000, years ahead of Apple's first 64-bit release.

You are off by a decade[0] on the date of the acquisition.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsity

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by simonh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:03PM (#16270241)
Were talking about the same thing, this is a historical discussion about the evolution of these processors that lead to this point. How can you suggest that I'm denying the advantages of multi-core when I pointed out Apple has now also adopted a variation of big.LITTLE?
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by jrs95 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:50PM (#16269825)
Even if they’re focused on power saving, the devices their chips end up are still less efficient than an iPhone AND they have lower performance. This might mostly be a software issue, but it still speaks to how far ahead Apple is by most metrics.

I use my phone relatively heavily, and I still get better battery life with an iPhone because the passive energy usage is just so damn low.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by xenadu02 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:22PM (#16267036)
64-bit ARM has similar advantages as 64-bit x86. It cleans up some cruft but more importantly it doubles the number of registers.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by tooltalk on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:30PM (#16267636)
Sure, I get that. What I'm asking is if there were any technical challenges (even to this date) in mobile computing that necessitated a 64-bit mobile chip.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by xenadu02 on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @02:01AM (#16272095)
I guess it depends on your perspective. Is performance a technical challenge? IMHO I say yes.

64-bit enables a number of other things. It has a better ABI for argument passing. It allows more extensive use of tagged pointers (the ObjC runtime can fit many common 11-char or shorter strings in a single tagged pointer). It's also a chance to make any other ABI-breaking changes you want to make in the runtime.

If you're forward looking you might say that mobile devices will exceed the 2GB/4GB limit soon enough so why not make the change now rather than waiting for it to become a problem? You'd get all the performance benefits listed above and a future-proof foundation on which to build.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by cedivad on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:43AM (#16264775)
Whats a 6-wide core?
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by ethbro on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:32AM (#16265088)
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by masklinn on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:05AM (#16264896)
Fetched & decoded instructions per cycle.

Parent is wrong though, the A7 has 3-wide cores (and dual-core like previous chips)

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by servitor on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:23AM (#16265021)
The Cyclone core has 6 decoders. It can decode, rename and retire up to 6 instructions per cycle[1].

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/7910/apples-cyclone-microarch...

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by tooltalk on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:18AM (#16266469)
All Apple A series chips were branded as theirs although it was fairly clear that prior to the A6, all A series chips were designed and manufactured by Samsung. The A4 chip was also designed by Samsung (and Intrinsity in collaboration) to compete with Qualcomm and go beyond the 1Ghz clock speed barrier.

Bloomberg also seems to think that the A4 was Apple's first processor designed in-house, when Intrinsity was not part of Apple. So I'd like to know how much of Apple's own engineering went into the design of the A4, that wasn't Samsung or Intrinsity.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by dave84 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:04AM (#16264336)
The opening paragraph also glosses over the fact that some of Apple's chips are also vulnerable to Meltdown and Spectre.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by masklinn on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:18AM (#16264388)
I'd missed that, but you're perfectly correct.

It's also stating that Apple could topple Qualcomm… despite Apple not selling to third parties, the only way that'd happen is if they obtained a complete monopoly on the smartphone market. I don't see either happen.

Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by rwmj on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:21AM (#16265007)
If Qualcomm sits around and does nothing. However Qualcomm are competing for the nascent ARM server market with the (incredible IMO) Amberwing, and Qualcomm would still have 50%+ of the mobile market for selling their modems and Snapdragons to fund development.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by zimpenfish on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:47AM (#16264794)
Theoretically, if the premium brand smartphone dropped Qualcomm and managed to make a go of it, that does put a lot of pressure on them and, perhaps, encourages others to do the same (Samsung, for example.)
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by simonh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:24AM (#16265036)
The BBC News breaking article on Meltdown and Spectre was hilarious. The title was something along the lines of "Apple phones have bug", then in a paragraph down near the end it noted that oh, by the way, almost all chips used everywhere by everyone are also affected.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by servitor on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:56AM (#16265265)
Apple were one of the last of the major companies to come out with a statement regarding Meltdown and Spectre. The BBC articles for Intel and the rest were written a day or so earlier.
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by digi_owl on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:31PM (#16268204)
Well media production orgs have a massive myopia for Apple tech, so it would not surprise me...
Re:How Apple Built a Chip Powerhouse to Threaten Qualcomm an... by nialljudedev on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:12AM (#16264367)
Yeah, it's vague at best on the detail.