It’s not really considered a lot for many corporations in America. Not to mention government workers, who often get even more. All military personnel get 30 days (6 weeks), for example.

What’s mind-boggling to me is that Europeans can’t help but continue to make these smug comments, when your minimums are usually either 4 or 5 weeks, and the average isn’t much more.

Yes, Americans work too much and don’t get enough vacation. But for software developers in particular, the overall comp in America is WAY better than for Europe. I’ll happily trade a week or two off (if I even have to) for double the salary.

> What’s mind-boggling to me is that Europeans can’t help but continue to make these smug comments, when your minimums are usually either 4 or 5 weeks, and the average isn’t much more.

The minimums of 4-5 weeks of vacation, plus far more mandatory sick leave than in the US -- usually more paid sick leave than Americans are guaranteed as job-protected, unpaid leave -- is vastly more than American workers get. Not even close.

And then we can talk about paternity/maternity leave and associated support, and piles of other things.

Given the demographics of the average tech worker - few of those benefits are things they will take advantage of. Cash is far more preferable for young people without children and major illnesses.

There are very few companies that give four weeks paid vacation. Can’t be more than 10%.

Two week is the status quo, and that’s after you earn it. Silicon Valley is an anomaly.

Actually, average salary worker with one year experience in America averages 11 days. With five years experience, 15 days. So it seems unlikely that only 10% give 20 days. Almost 20% of the US workforce is employed by Federal, state, and local governments, which tend to give a bit more vacation than industry, I believe.

Regardless, we’re talking about SV, so whether it’s an anomaly is irrelevant.

Source: https://www.thebalance.com/how-much-vacation-time-and-pay-do...

That’s PTO, which isn’t vacation.

What's the difference? They're paying you for time you're not working, and if you quit, they have to pay you out the accumulated PTO.

> What's the difference?

"PTO" or "annual leave" typically is either a combined pool used for both vacation and sick leave purposes, or, when used to compare across employers, compares what is offered as either PTO/annual leave by name, or the sum of separate vacation and sick leave.

So, no, its not the same as vacation.

I think it's a matter of semantics. My current employer refers to it as PTO (as in "schedule your PTO and clear it with your manager") but we still have extra sick days.

The main difference is that PTO (or vacation days) accrue whereas sick days don't.

Usually that combines vacation, sick and personal time, at s net loss to the employee.

2 weeks + 10ish federal holidays is pretty standard for professional white collar office jobs. Works out to about 4 work weeks.

VS 4 weeks plus holidays in many European counties.

No matter how you cut it, we absolutely suck at time off. And even when companies offer it people don’t take it because the culture discourages it.

He’s right to be smug about it. We need to change the culture here.

Yeah but y'all get paid less

Yes, and smugness from Europeans is the way to do that.

It’s also unfair to consider things like vacation time, parental leave, and universal healthcare (the prime topics for smug) without also considering economic growth rates, employment levels, and overall comp, particularly for white collar workers.

The story in America vs the EU isn’t one of their paradise vs our hellscape. It’s one of inequality. Life for the poor or middle class in America sucks compared to Europe. But if you’re lucky enough to be an employed white collar worker in America, you don’t have it much worse, if at all, than the average white collar European. Open to data proving otherwise.

For what it’s worth, I too want more vacation time, better parental leave, and universal healthcare in the US. But they come at a cost, and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise.

I'm not smug, I think the workers in the US get a shitty deal. It's a major reason I wouldn't want to work there. (The same reason I wouldn't work in the games industry in the UK).

That’s a common misconception. Many workers in the US get screwed. But definitely not all. Software devs in the US are almost unquestionably better off when you take total comp into account.

“But if you’re lucky enough to be an employed white collar worker in America, you don’t have it much worse, if at all, than the average white collar European.”

America? Fuck yeah?!?!

Maybe you meant that with an air of condescension, but anecdotally I can vouch he’s right. I have family in Europe with white collar jobs and they really are no better off than an equivalent white collar American worker despite what people seem to think.

In Germany a lot of people get 30 days plus(!) more public holidays than the US so it's probably closer to double.

The minimum in the EU is 4 weeks, with many countries having 5 weeks. On top of that most countries have ~10 paid public holidays. So the real span is 30-35 days. If you work a government job or get older it is usually an additional 5 days. So at least in northern Europe people usually take four continuous weeks in the summer, one week at Christmas, one week for winter activities and maybe two additional long weekends. Sick leave is separate and not earned like vacation days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

Plus a lot of offices are closed over Christmas to New Years. Not most, but many.

+ 2 weeks sick leave + x hours vacation/year of employment

The military leave system doesn't discount weekends. So 30 days is closer to 4 weeks. You also can't chain together a weekend at the start or end of your leave. You must use leave for the weekend.

Also, most line units have block-leave, meaning you can only take leave in prescribed periods which limits flexibility.

It’s more complicated than I made it out, but not quite as you say. You can chain leave with weekends if you’re in the area, for example.

> when your minimums are usually either 4 or 5 weeks, and the average isn’t much higher

But that means that the average IS higher than what the comment I replied to stated as high (at least in comparison to working for tesla). Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned that I’m European[1], sure, but I was not generalising to all of America, only that the person I replied to seemed to consider 4 weeks a plus and I found that boggling given that its the minimum here (meaning that something that would be considered high would have to be higher still). Yes, yes, I probably should have been clearer, but it sounds like you have gears to grind.

[1] Although, I do think its relevant because up until recently I worked for a US company and everyone in the office here was getting quite a few more holidays than the people in the US office. A friend of mine recently said the same thing: the people in the US office in the company he works for were getting approx. half of the holidays people here were getting.

I definitely have gears to grind.

It’s impossible to have a discussion online about parental leave, vacation time, or universal healthcare without a parade of Europeans rolling through and expressing (mock) horror and shock at the hellscape that Americans have to live in.

I’ve lived in Europe, and hope to again. I LOVE Europe and agree that quality of life is much better in many areas. But it’s not perfect, and the constant drumbeat of condescension about these few topics is neither helpful nor an accurate picture of the total differences between the countries.

Imagine if every time you had a discussion about salary, or employment levels, or whatever, you had 13 Americans dropping by just to say: “wow, I had no idea you have it so bad!!!”

So yeah, gears to grind :)

From what I have seen a lot of companies in the US give 10 days, 15 is very and 20 or more is pretty rare. Maybe after a few years at the company.

Good point. I wish there were more companies offering alternatives in US. Some people maybe like having more time off, or working from home is more valuable than say a higher compensation package. At the same time can't really put those extra weeks of vacation into a college fund for a kid for example, so a better paying job works better for others.

It's the triple salary normally. And in the US on Fridays rarely somebody is in, >70% do "work" from home.

To say more then 70% of tech workers do not work on friday is probably incorrect. Your experiences differ very much from mine, and places like the Gigafactory don't have this perk.

It boggles my American mind that you are willing to work for half of what I make in trade for a couple more weeks vacation time. I'm sure we could both find more snotty lines to throw at each other if we try, but what's the point?

I make less than a SV salary, but my cost of living is also substantially lower. It works out fairly close last time I checked, assuming your salary is approximately the SV average for software engineering jobs.

I’d also happily take a pay cut from what I earn now in exchange for more free time.

Last time I considered moving to Europe and ran the numbers, it didn't come out "fairly close" in any major city, even Oslo and Zurich. Zurich was closest though.

Some cities were ridiculously out of wack, like London where the pay cut would be like 30-50%. When you can swing an after tax savings rate of near 30-50% on the west coast, it becomes really, really difficult to make the numbers work out.

But then again this is anecdotal for a specific level. Though when I did a more brief look for levels above me, the difference was even more stark (we got some serious income inequality for upper levels in the US).

"even" Oslo and Zurich? :-) you picked two of the most expensive cities in Europe if not the world!

Exactly. The fact that Zurich came closest to making the math work out should tell you something....

When you don't spend 100% of your income on getting by, marginal increases in both pay and living costs favor you, so long as they are remotely balanced.

People (especially Europeans) always say something along these lines, that they earn less but they also have a lower cost of living so it’s ok.

But it’s not a good trade off. Having a lower cost of living does not give you nearly as many options as simply having more cash. A person with a high salary can always cut his standard of living and go into a high savings mode if they are planning some big money moves.

Quit?

Because earning nothing is the same as earning less?

Good on you, break a leg. No wait, dont, you might go bankrupt ;)

How many weeks off are you guys given? 4 weeks sounds like quite a lot (it's a whole month!)

Australian here, 4 weeks is the legal minimum. At my work place it starts out at 4 weeks and goes up to 6 weeks after 4 years of full time employment.

ugh, america really needs to copy this

But only for full time jobs right, screw the tens of millions of people that work hourly and are managed to be legally part time.

(What I mean is, vacation time for full time white collar jobs probably isn't the first thing we need to address in our labor laws)

very reasonable

why.. If you want 4 weeks find a company that offers it. Many of them do. My company does and I would prefer they just pay me.

it's more i wish we had a culture of encouraging people to take more time off, where it was normal/expected. (actually, i think the ideal way to work for me might be something like "insane hours for 3 months, no work for 3 months". or maybe every two weeks. or something.)

i just think there's a strong expectation/cultural momentum to be working all the time, more than is healthy. you can swim against it, but you're still swimming against it.

Have you asked them if they can just pay it out? It might mess with their budgeting slightly, but they'd be paying the same per hour worked so likely not be a big deal.

UK is 28 days paid leave (includes public holidays).

...although, under the current government many employers have moved workers to be contractors on "zero hours contracts", so you're uber driver, food delivery guy, amazon packing guy etc have basically none of these rights.

On the other hand, if you are software dev you are either employed and have the 28 days - or you are a contractor, less rights but paid more than the permies.

Some IT contractors line up something before their current one ends, or there will be a gap while you find something.

5 weeks is the legal minimum in France.

Does that count national holidays as well? I get three weeks of paid vacation, but I also 10 national holidays (two for Thanksgiving, two for Christmas, 4th of July, etc..).

It doesn't in Australia. You get 4 weeks vacation time + ~10 public holidays a year + sick leave if needed.

It doesn't count in France neither.

It’s 28 days in the UK. Those weeks include the weekends!

They include bank holidays (various fridays off), but the rest of it is just time you would've worked anyway, not time you would've had off.

Righ - I mean it’s 4 full weeks of 7 days, so 28 in total, rather than 4 working weeks of 5 apiece, totalling 20.

4 weeks of annual leave is the minimum here in Australia.

Not including the 10 days of sick leave as well.

4 weeks. plus 11 public holidays. plus sick leave.

In Spain the minimum is 30 natural days or 22 work days.

Plus 14 national holidays

To be fair, a lot of tech companies these days offer unlimited PTO. Then again, taking more than 6~7 weeks is still somewhat taboo.

I talked to start up with unlimited PTO and told them I will for sure take at least 6 weeks. That was pretty much the end of discussion. Unlimited PTO mainly means that they don't have to pay out unused vacation when you leave.

Unlimited is more of a code word for none.

My company has to force me to take the 4 weeks they give me, if it was allowed I would simply case it out for more money..

My European mind thinks 4 weeks are a lot. We have 3 weeks by law here. So the 4 weeks is not a universal thing in EU.

It boggles MY European mind that you consider 4 weeks too few.

Where did I state that in my comment?

The comment I replied to implied that 4 was high, I only said that it boggles my mind that this would be considered high. Where I am, its the legal minimum, so I wouldn’t consider it high, but I also never said[1] that its too few. You made that up.

[1] In the comment you’re replying to. I did say elsewhere that I would happily trade a pay cut for more holidays, but that’s a choice I would personally make. Having said that, with the state of mental health here and in the US (according to stuff that’s been posted to HN over the past year or two) and personal anecdotes with friends, family and coworkers, I do think that most people need to work less.