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Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by komali2 on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:01PM (#16163641)
I love bitcoin and cryptocurrency as potential solutions to problems with gov-controlled currencies (I've used crypto to buy drugs, for example). But I'm still confused why people refer to purchasing currency as an "investment." Obviously the rates are going up now, but doesn't everyone expect them to just come back down? I don't convert my USD to Yen and call it an "investment."
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by Jtsummers on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:11PM (#16163732)
Well, there is actual forex investing (speculating). For instance, the value of the USD versus the Argentine Peso (ARS) is something I track (my girlfriend lives there and long term I would consider moving there, current plan is for her to move here). The USD to ARS conversion is increasingly favorable for the USD, the buying power of ARS hasn't dropped significantly (in country) but the USD is worth more ARS now than 1.5 years ago (1USD:15ARS then versus 1USD:18ARS today). Someone who had currency in ARS at the time, and converted it to the USD, could see significant returns on that investment (assuming reasonable exchange fees). Almost 20% gains, that matches the US stock increases over this past year.

It is speculation, however, as you generally don't have the same sort of insight into currency movements as you will into stock movements and commodities in general. Someone watching the Brexit vote in summer 2016 would have made a decent return on ARS had they moved it to the USD before the vote and back after (changed from 1USD:13ARS to 1USD:15ARS practically overnight). But that is speculation and requires watching global and national scale events to predict.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slyzmud on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @06:49AM (#16167162)
I live in Argentina. I want to add that we don't invest in dollars, we save in dollars. We don't expect to have more money after some time, we just expect not to loose money by inflation.

Although it might seem that buying dollars have a return of 20% or more in a year, by the time you sell it everything cost more in ARS because most prices are tied to US dollars. So you end up having the same. If you have saved in ARS, with the same money you could buy a lot less things

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by reacharavindh on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @03:17AM (#16166328)
Out of curiosity, did you check the inflation rate of Argentina? May be you could get same value in Argentina with 20% more Argentinian currency after a year?

I found this thinking about my home land - India..

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:06PM (#16164160)
I believe strongly that the word 'invest' should be used to distinguish one's activities from speculation, rather than be a superclass of it. Discourse is poisoned when people promote semantic overlap and create ambiguity, rather than using words to create meaningful distinctions.

Investing is what you do when you're not merely speculating on short-term returns, but are instead focused on long-term value creation. It is right to call it currency speculation, because instead of investing capital to create sustainable growth in something, you're just skimming the fluctuations using massive leverage.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by lsaferite on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:34PM (#16164372)
Unless you are part of an IPO or are buying newly issued stock you are also speculating on stocks when you buy them.

Note: Not a finance person, just a personal opinion.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:45PM (#16164464)
In practice, it may not be possible to neatly classify any particular financial decision as being purely investment or purely speculation. This only increases the need to have these words mean clearly different things so that we may use them to analyze the different aspects of the ambiguous world in which we find ourselves. Blurring the meaning of the words effectively robs people of the ability to reason about their circumstances, and it is no wonder that many people feel invested in creating such confusion.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:48PM (#16164478)
The impossibility of separating the two concepts necessitates two different words for those concepts?

That's a contradiction.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:50PM (#16164493)
The concepts are easy to separate: Investment is symbiotic, Speculation is parasitic. Having clear concepts is more important when the real-world examples are complicated.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by mythrwy on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @10:10PM (#16165157)
Speculation isn't necessarily parasitic at all. For example it can function in assuming risk.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:51PM (#16164495)
How is speculation parasitic?
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:04PM (#16164562)
Speculators seek to extract alpha without regard to the overall health of the instrument. Shorting is just as good as going long, so far as you make a profit.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:06PM (#16164570)
That doesn't mean they're parasitic. To show they're parasitic, you'd have to describe how they hurt the company.

Regardless, what defines speculation is not parasitism, it's uncertainty. And there's uncertainty in any investment as well. That's why there's no clear line between the two.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:14PM (#16164614)
I disagree. I have made a clear delineation in the semantic content of my definitions, while you continue to attempt to confuse the issue.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:17PM (#16164637)
I mean, the definitions aren't yours to make. These words exist in the dictionary.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:23PM (#16164672)
Writers of dictionaries are archaeologists of language. They do not prescribe the meaning of words like a programmer or mathematician. Their definitions are posterior to language. The definitions are in fact mine to make, provided they result in successful communication with people who have adopted similar definitions.

Go read my original post again. I am advocating against ambiguity in language, as this serves to obscure analysis. You are clearly happy to obliterate distinction, however, and have made no attempt at a positive argument why it is beneficial to discourse.

Language is a constant negotiation about the meaning of words, and I have made my position clear.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:27PM (#16164693)
I'll bow out here, but I'll just point out that this is a great example of how one's adherence to their ideas makes rational conversation impossible.

We can only communicate to the extent that we agree on the definitions of words, so for you to invent your own definitions, which contradict how other people use the word, as codified in dictionaries, then there's zero hope of reaching shared understanding.

It would be absurd for me to claim that "the sky is brown", the later argue that I was right all along because I'm defining "brown" to be "blue".

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by philipov on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:35PM (#16164725)
I will simply point out that at every opportunity, I have been upfront about what definitions I am adopting and the distinctions I am attempting to make, while you have done nothing but dissemble and create ambiguity, without offering a positive program of your own. I will leave it up to other readers to make their own conclusions.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:43PM (#16164758)
If I say "the sky is brown", am I being up front that I'm defining "brown" to be the color of the sky?
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by bduerst on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @09:25PM (#16164954)
This comment thread has been one of the weirdest internet arguments on the semantics of a word that I've seen in a while.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by imcoconut on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:51AM (#16165998)
only on HN.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by zodiac on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @04:02AM (#16166510)
Would you say that all short selling is parasitic?
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by eloff on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:44PM (#16164457)
It depends I guess on how you do your homework and how long you hold the stocks for. Warren Buffett style long-term value based investing vs speculative day trading for example.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by brucephillips on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:48PM (#16164482)
Speculation relates to uncertainty, not timing.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by vthallam on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:06PM (#16163692)
You would call it an investment, if the USD-YEN prices are so volatile and give you 1000X profit in 6 months. Again, this all goes back to whether Bitcoin is a store of value or a medium of exchange.

By now it's very clear, it can't be medium of exchange.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by ezzaf on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:34PM (#16163940)
I disagree that short term returns make it an investment. Speculation is term that much better fits the action of buying a currency with intent to return a profit.

"A speculator is a person who trades derivatives, commodities, bonds, equities or currencies with a higher than average risk in return for a higher-than-average profit potential" https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/speculator.asp

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by josephg on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:12PM (#16163751)
People keep saying that, but the lightning network is in testing at the moment and when it gets widely deployed we should start seeing near zero transaction fees on the bitcoin network.

You can say what you want about the philosophy of that - the lightning network will add yet another group of people who collectively have an outsized control over the network. But if the scaling issues get addressed I don't see any reason why it couldn't work as a currency. And it looks like they are being (slowly) addressed.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slindz on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:20PM (#16163828)
Any successful Lightning Network (at scale) would require a dramatic block size increase. The last (Lightning Network tech) I saw suggested it would need a 133MB blocksize.

Blockstream struck down a modest increase to 2MB in November. They have devs who want to reduce the blocksize. I'm not sure where you're finding hope in LN.

Bitcoin Cash forked off to get back to scaling, and it's doing great. Check out how well the mempool stress test went this past week.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by notsrg on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:48PM (#16164044)
And Bitcoin Cash will need GB or even TB sized blocks to scale to the size of Visa. If scaling the network was as easy as changing 1 variable it wouldn't be that hard to get consensus on a scaling solution.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slindz on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:29PM (#16164335)
GB blocks are basically ready with today's hardware though the need is years out. It won't be long before TB blocks can say the same, testing is underway.

Current prevailing theory in BCH land is the block size is an unnecessary hinderance, and will likely be gone in the next 18 months.

Exciting times!

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by jstanley on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:44PM (#16164458)
> GB blocks are basically ready with today's hardware

What are you smoking? Even 1GB blocks would be 144GB per day of blockchain growth. You can't expect people to tolerate that kind of disk usage, let alone bandwidth.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by dang on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @02:11AM (#16166081)
This breaks the HN guidelines. Commenters here aren't allowed to attack others no matter how wrong someone is. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by imtringued on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @04:45AM (#16166691)
7000 transactions per second is a lot of of data. If you're keeping history then you cannot store 4200000 transactions per 10 minutes in less than a 1GB block. The problem isn't the blocksize. The problem is that traditional blockchains grow indefinitively and keep onchain data forever.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slindz on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:47PM (#16164474)
It is possible today, thankfully not necessary.

By the time they're necessary, it'll be a lot less demanding, relatively speaking....

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by Robotbeat on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:16PM (#16163782)
And what good is a store of value if it's not a medium of exchange and its value is incredibly volatile (and doesn't have some sort of intrinsic industrial value like a metal might)?
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by mvkel on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:08PM (#16174622)
Like... stock in any company?
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by Robotbeat on Thursday January 18, 2018 @11:46PM (#16184203)
Companies usually have assets, like buildings, real estate, etc.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by bandrami on Friday January 19, 2018 @01:48AM (#16184563)
Arbitrage is not investment
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by scotty79 on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:18PM (#16163807)
If you earned Venezuelan currency you might consider buying USD with it an investment.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by mancerayder on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:18PM (#16164259)
Might some argue that some of the capital being placed in these currencies, whether they're by clever millionaires who studied whitepapers, or Uber drivers (as the anecdote goes) who jumped in after taking out a line of credit on the house, is investment in some of the companies behind the tech? For example, BTC companies like Blockstream funded things like satellites, while the Ethereum founder has been donating money to companies that help the Ethereum future.

Perhaps it's 'accidental investing with a dose of roulette number thrown in'.

Perhaps it's a new type of investment/gambling hybrid that requires a new category.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by jstanley on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:43PM (#16164447)
No, by buying some cryptocurrency you're not investing in the company behind the tech (if there even is one) at all.

If the currency does well but the company does badly, you still win. If the currency does badly but the company does well, you still lose.

You're exposed to the fluctuations of the currency, and completely unexposed to the valuation of the company.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by mancerayder on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:37PM (#16164733)
Sure, there's that aspect. But the angle here is that they can take some of the capital transferred to them via crypto currency purchases to then use to directly invest in, and one thinks that by doing so they could well choose to invest in the ventures or areas that might increase the likelihood of the potential success of the currency. Which theoretically goes back to you.

I'm not trying to sugar-coat or rationalize the mania, only trying to explore the idea that this is both and neither gambling and investing.

I think people object to the idea that money used to purchase crypto currency in the first place is capital.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by bandrami on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @06:50AM (#16167166)
It depends on the currency in question, but for most of them, specifically no: they aren't "issued" by the company in question or even really related to them in any way. They're only in a position to gain from a coin purchase if they happen to have done the mining themselves (which they generally don't). All these ICOs are just blockchains branded by a certain company.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by average_person on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @12:33PM (#16169869)
I woould like people to start using the word 'currencies' because they are not.

Following Investopedia 'Currency is a generally accepted form of money, including coins and paper notes, which is issued by a government and circulated within an economy. Used as a medium of exchange for goods and services, currency is the basis for trade.'

crypto is not generally accepted form of money; not issued by a government; circulated within economy - somehow yes.

So they don't fulfill all the requirements.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by komali2 on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:47PM (#16170556)
I feel like the first two aspects - "generally accepted, issued by a government" are unnecessary. If someone will take it as a medium for exchange, then that's currency to me.

I always thought of it as "otherwise value-less representation of value." All the currency I can think of fits this definition - including gold! Gold is only really valuable recently for circuits and the like.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by average_person on Saturday January 20, 2018 @05:41AM (#16192894)
Point taken. However, another important aspect is that currencies around the wolrd fulfill the same functions whereas when it comes to crypto - each token will represent anything that the creator intended it to be PLUS what the community uses it for (e.g. store of value). And each token will have a different 'design', different functions - from being tokens to enter the platform (e.g. Ethereuem itself) to tokens representing fractual ownership in assets (e.g. Maecenas art tokens or our RAT tokens representing a rat mascot, more about it here: https://medium.com/@katdum/what-did-i-learn-from-tokenizing-...). So there will be coins that will be fulfilling the descirption of a currency (apart from the government requirement) but there will be only a few ones compared to the vast amount of tokens with different functions.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by average_person on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @12:28PM (#16169805)
I don't convert my USD to Yen and call it an "investment." As stated below, some people do treat it as an investment to some extent. The other thing is, in my opinion more interesting, how you define crypto. They aren't really currencies even though people call them this way. They are a different kind of asset. Sometimes compared to gold, sometimes to stocks but it might be that they are just a new type and we just don't know how to value them. And by supporting them people support the technology behind.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by chrismcb on Thursday January 18, 2018 @12:31AM (#16174918)
Well you might not call converting USD to yen an investment, there are some people that do. That is some people's job. It isn't that much didn't than investing in the stock market
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by hndamien on Thursday January 18, 2018 @06:17PM (#16182539)
That is because those currencies are inflationary. Without a moderate interest rate, putting it in the bank wouldn't even be considered "saving".
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by jgh on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:06PM (#16163693)
Some people do though (forex traders), but that is not the primary use-case
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by skgoa on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @07:41AM (#16167407)
No honest forex trader would call his trading an investment, though. They/we know exactly that it's just gambling based on very limited data. Also, traders are extremely careful to limit their risk. No sane trader would hold bitcoin for extend lengths of time. Yet hodling is exactly what bitcoin "investors" advocate.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by fnord77 on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:33PM (#16164361)
it's useless as a currency while speculators are making its value so volatile. The sooner this bubble pops and the get rich people go away, the better.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by dagw on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @06:23AM (#16167049)
Once the current batch of speculators cash out, volatility settles and it starts getting used as a currency then its price will start to edge up again, bringing in a new wave of speculators who drive up volatility making it less useful as a currency and loop starts over.
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slindz on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:12PM (#16163752)
Well, the circulation limit/deflationary part is pretty key to that. How many dollars/yen/what-have-you are printed every year leaving your existing dollars/yen/what-have-you with less buying power?

Thinking the world will flock to a fixed pool of frictionless digital exchange does not seem insane to me. I'm talking about the ones you can transact for less than a penny (BCH), not the old guard (BTC).

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by matthewbauer on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:31PM (#16163925)
But what makes you think BCH is the one? You might like my soon to be released coin Bitcoin Cash Cash. Fees will be 0!
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slindz on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @06:48PM (#16164042)
It's a collection of everybody who made Bitcoin great to begin with. Great community. I believe it's a bunch of doers and not talkers.

Fees are less than a penny. System works great, like Bitcoin used to.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by xur17 on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:33PM (#16164368)
I'm curious, and I haven't found the answer yet - what's the scaling plan if Bitcoin Cash runs out of block room? Just keep increasing the size? Is there an upper limit before the chain increases in size too quickly to be sustainable?
Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by slindz on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:41PM (#16164436)
It's the usual combination.

Block size as much as makes sense, optimizations where possible, if lightning works (it won't) - use it.

Gavin Andresen has published about his latest work 'Graphene' which shrinks block sizes dramatically.

They'll take/use any good ideas so long as it doesn't cripple basic onchain functionality.

Re:Bitcoin Fall Extends to 25% as Fears of Crackdown Linger by stale2002 on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:21PM (#16164286)
The reason is simple.

Blocksize and fees are a tradeoff.

1 cent fees are a significant advantage over 20$ fees.

But 0.0001 cent fees aren't really that much more useful for your coffee transactions.

Sure, maybe someone will come up with another chain that is used for true micro transactions.

But what we are saying is, that each of these fee levels are good for different use cases.

Bitcoin's high fees and high security are great for a digital gold product that isn't traded much.

Bitcoin Cash made a different tradeoff in the attempt to go after the daily spending market.

Pros and cons.