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Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @04:26AM (#16113581)
Unfortunately, the cycling organizations don't really like to admit that most right turn accidents happen because cyclists don't seem to understand that motor vehicles have blind spots, and big motor vehicles have bigger blind spots.

As someone who regularly drives, bikes, walks and uses public transport in Copenhagen, it is blatantly obvious that people just don't know how to handle right turns involving both cars and bicycles correctly. Car drivers will leave space open on their right (between the car and the curb), instead of putting the car as close to the curb as possible (which is taught in driver's ed). Bicyclists will pile into this space, and when the light turns green, it becomes almost impossible for the driver to turn right, because of the bikes already there, as well as the additional bikes coming from behind, completely ignoring the right blinker on the car.

The mitigation of this problem is two-fold. Firstly, the drivers should not leave open space on their right, when turning right. Secondly, cyclists need to grow a sense of self-preservation and not dive into that space, even if it's open. Large vehicles need to have some distance from the curb in order to complete the turn, but that should not be seen as an invitation to cyclists.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by PeterisP on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @04:42AM (#16113671)
"when the light turns green, it becomes almost impossible for the driver to turn right, because of the bikes already there, as well as the additional bikes coming from behind, completely ignoring the right blinker on the car."

Isn't that how it should be ? I'm not in DK, but in LV traffic laws in such a situation they should ignore the blinker, the driver must wait and turn right only after everyone going straight e.g. those bicycles and also pedestrians crossing the road he's turning to; since the vehicle turning must yield to everyone else.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by avip on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @06:28AM (#16114170)
That sounds like an extremely dangerous law... In bike-crowded cities you will never be able to take a safe right-turn that way.
Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @08:45AM (#16114834)
You simply wait for a gap in the flow of bikes, and pull all the way to the curb, so there's no gap. Then you only really have to worry about the bikes in front of you, and any pedestrians in the crossing.
Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by brewdad on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:17AM (#16116114)
Portland gets this wrong in every possible way. First, drivers turning right must yield to bikes in the bike lane passing on the right (not unreasonable IMO). However, state law also makes it illegal to pull into the bike lane and establish a position to turn right. Add in pedestrians and it's almost impossible to make a right turn on some roads at rush hour.

For some reason, we seem to have a lot of car/bike/ped conflicts.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by PeterisP on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @12:06PM (#16116643)
Around here it's generally solved by having separate traffic lights for cars, pedestrians and the bike lane, and having some extra time every cycle of lights where it's red for bikes and pedestrians but green for cars to enable those turns.

E.g. this shot in google maps - https://www.google.lv/maps/@56.9578862,24.1189538,3a,75y,240... ; it's green for cars, but red for the bike lane on the right side.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by gambiting on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @04:53AM (#16113728)
No, the law clearly says that you can never overtake a vehicle on the right - and it applies to cyclist the same as to everyone else, even if the vehicle wasn't turning right it's illegal for the cyclist to overtake it on the wrong side.
Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by PeterisP on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @05:12AM (#16113819)
Do I misunderstand your traffic laws (taken from https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=158005) pt. 21 about overtaking, which says "... Cyklist og fører af lille knallert kan overhale køretøjer af andre arter til højre." which seems to translate that it does not apply to cyclists and they can overtake on the right?

And 26.6 "...Ved svingning til højre må den kørende ikke være til ulempe for cyklister og knallertkørere, der kører lige ud. ..." saying that vehicles turning right must yield to cyclists going straight?

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @05:26AM (#16113888)
Yes, the car must yield, which is why the best approach is to wait for a gap in the flow of cyclists, and then go all the way to the curb, leaving no gap.

Of course, bicyclists will just jump the curb, ride on the sidewalk or overtake on the left, because everyone wants to be in front.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @05:25AM (#16113882)
No, bicycles and small scooters (limited to 30kph, allowed on bike lanes) are allowed to overtake on the right.

Which is precisely why right-turning drivers should leave no gap between the car and the curb, to claim their space, as it were.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by Quanttek on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @07:14AM (#16114383)
In almost every country (at least in Europe) cars have to yield to any traffic going stright on their right side. This includes both pedestrians and cyclists. And, yes, these have the right to overtake on the right. If straight traffic would have to yield to turning traffic, that would be way too dangerous
Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by kerberos84 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @06:06AM (#16114066)
Yes motor vehicles have blind spots that is why in driving school they teach you checking over shoulder when you turn right. Remember? And yes you should wait for pedestrians and cyclists first if you want to turn right. That is the traffic law. And maybe you can park your car on the curb so that you don't need to wait for pedestrians either!
Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @08:47AM (#16114847)
Pulling right up to the curb is the correct way to prepare for a right turn in a car, while sharing the road with bicycles, as taught in driver's ed here in Denmark.

And yes, obviously you check your mirrors and do a good shoulder check, that goes without saying.

But you ALSO pull to the curb after checking mirrors+over your shoulder, to claim the lane while preparing for your turn. You pull in either in front of or behind the cyclists, because the dangerous situations happen when you're side by side.

If there's a bike lane, you obviously don't pull across that, this only applies for streets without bike lanes.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by pmontra on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @04:44AM (#16113682)
This could not apply to Copenhagen and Denmark but I guess that in most other countries cyclists are also car drivers and spend more time in their car than on their bicycle. However there are many car drivers that don't have a bicycle or seldom use it, maybe because they are scared by cars. If the driver is not a cyclist it's difficult to understand what's going on. I suggest that to get a license one should also get some practice in the traffic as a cyclist, to remember what not to do with a car.

About your mitigation strategy: that would solve the problem but unfortunately the cyclist won't stop behind the car. The cyclist would turn left to overtake the stopped car. I don't like to do that because it puts me in the middle of the road or to the right of another car. It also requires some space to maneuver and a car could be arriving from behind me and close the gap.

Usually stopped cars don't hit cyclists (but watch out for doors). I look at the traffic light and refrain from overtaking the car (both on the left and on the right) if it's about to turn green.

Re:A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @05:27AM (#16113898)
There is definitely an issue with crossing over to overtake on the left, which is why the best thing to do is actually to stay behind the car, but leave some distance to the curb, to claim your position in the lane.

That way, there will be no cyclists blocking the car from turning safely, and the driver will only have to yield to pedestrians in the crossing. To put it bluntly, it's because they're idiots.