News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by oceanghost on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:58PM (#16067660)
I realize this idea is a bit old fashioned... but how about a news network where they simply try as hard as they can to report objective reality, and we don't worry about whom that favors?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by mieseratte on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:05PM (#16067694)
Choosing what to show (and what not) is just as important in shaping opinion and worldview while still allowing for objectivity. We have limited time, limited attention spans, and limited concern (or outrage).

For example, one can cover, say, the illegal immigration situation in the US. While a more liberal outlet might focus on humanitarian concerns of the immigrants, the "good ones" leading virtuous lives in the country a conservative one might focus on the humanitarian concerns of Americans, major crime, etc.

What would be nice is an objective outlet that provides reasonable consideration of both sides in a concise manner, analyzes potential benefit and harm, etc. I'm sure this is the "Good, cheap, or fast" of news.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by whatshisface on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:15PM (#16067746)
Politically "active material" is, for some reason, the only branch of knowledge that we all seem to agree can't be expressed in words. I can tell you everything known about the effects of... caffeine on general health: all I have to do is start talking, and then not stop until I've said every well-supported, relevant fact. There's absolutely no fundamental reason why I can't put the profile of an undocumented hard-working fruit picker in the same broadcast as a report on a brutal drug-related homicide believed to have involved people here illegally. There are many political reasons why I wouldn't do that, most of them related to the motivations that drove me to do character profiles (a dangerous combination of emotional credibility and statistical weakness) in the first place, instead of having calm talks about the large averages that we use to illuminate every field of truth that's devoid of strong ulterior motives.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by QAPereo on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:01PM (#16071899)
You still require an audience which understands you, believes you... otherwise you do what you just said for vaccines, and you still get anti-vaxxers. Besides. 90%+ of your audience just flipped to the channels which tell them what they want to hear.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by whatshisface on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:38PM (#16072224)
The tools that we could use to get the "uninterested" to believe the truth work equally well for falsities, and are usually used to spread beliefs of convienience. If those tools were just sent down entirely, you'd be left with "right" and "random," and the random would always average out at the polls. Sadly, in our present world stupid is dangerous because machiavellians and martyrs alike are magnetizing it with arguments that are as wrong as they are emotionally convincing.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by QAPereo on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:48PM (#16072315)
Sadly, in our present world stupid is dangerous because machiavellians and martyrs alike are magnetizing it with arguments that are as wrong as they are emotionally convincing.

I don’t usually do this here, as it’s not strictly substantive, but damn that’s a concise and lovely way of putting it.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by oceanghost on Thursday January 04, 2018 @01:15AM (#16068421)
Yes, I've read Manufacturing Consent :) Fully agree.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by jballanc on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:15PM (#16067744)
In other words: NPR/PBS.

Every news organization will have bias because every person has bias, and news organizations are made up of people. So the real choice one has to make is: what sort of bias do I want in my news?

The easiest way to identify bias is to look at where the money comes from. In the case of CPB-funded organizations yes, some of their funding is government based, so they're likely to be biased toward reporting that favors government funding for public institutions (or, in the extreme: socialism). However they also receive a significant portion of their funding from volunteer donors, so their reporting is also likely to be biased in favor of people who altruistically give without expectation of any specific ROI.

Now, if you favor small government and self-sufficient individuals who look out for #1 above all else, NPR/PBS is probably not your cup of tea.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by laingc on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:20PM (#16067776)
I’m not American, but I do listen to quite a few NPR podcasts and enjoy them a lot.

Your claim that NPR isn’t biased is quite frankly ludicrous. Their programming features a clear and unmistakeable liberal* bias, and the fact that you seem to be unaware of this probably just means that you share this worldview. That’s absolutely fine with me, but you should really re-examine your idea of objectivity.

* In the American sense of the word.

Edit: I acknowledge that you admit that all news organisations are biased, however I’m responding to your central claim that NPR fills the objective role referred to by GP

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by travmatt on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:33PM (#16067832)
The best you can get is an organization that has a consistent and clear bias, which NPR has - also why people like BBC and the Economist. Additionally, I’d caution against extrapolating NPR’s journalistic bias by their podcasts - it’s a podcast, whereas radio content was produced expressly in line with their journalistic and reporting standards (I don’t listen to any of their podcasts dealing with politics so I couldn’t judge those).
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by humanrebar on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:53PM (#16067912)
NPR doesn't own its bias, so I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "consistent and clear" to describe the NPR viewpoint.

Here's NPR poorly representing the controversy over the Google memo this summer:

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/08/542180434/google-fires-engine...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by SauciestGNU on Thursday January 04, 2018 @09:14AM (#16070413)
I just read that transcript, and I think it is the least histrionic and probably most charitable to Damore that has come out of the mainstream media. I read the memo (in full, with annotations), and I think it is being properly represented in this interview.

Without relitigating the whole kerfuffle, I believe that whether or not you think the media is fair to Damore depends on whether or not you are in agreement with the presuppositions he held when writing the memo.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by humanrebar on Thursday January 04, 2018 @01:14PM (#16072583)
I don't agree with the presuppositions. I also think his views were not fairly summarized, which is critical to the story since his expression of his thoughts are what got him fired. If you mess up that reporting, the story becomes "Google fired a crypto-sexist guy and sexist people are grumpy about it", which is pretty close to how the NPR story reads to me.

Grading on a curve, maybe NPR did fine (I've ready Fox News accounts that read similarly), but on topic, some people (Thiel) think there's some monoculture in the media that needs disrupted.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by jballanc on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:27PM (#16067806)
> Their programming features a clear and unmistakeable liberal* bias, and the fact that you seem to be unaware of this probably just means that you share this worldview.

"Reality has a well-known liberal bias."

All joking aside, I definitely acknowledge NPR's liberal bias. My main point was to "follow the money". More traditional liberal (and conservative) media outlets have funding that is much more "active" (for lack of a better term) than NPR.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by humanrebar on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:31PM (#16067826)
On the other hand, NPR and PBS exist partly because they are effective at lobbying Congress for funding.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:50AM (#16068340)
NPR and PBS are extremely ineffective at lobbying Congress for funding; what federal funding NPR gets is indirect through member stations, but federal funding is far behind listener support and corporate sponsorship in the revenue streams reaching the member stations; the CPBs federal funding, adjusted for inflation, is basically flat for 40 years.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by humanrebar on Thursday January 04, 2018 @08:00AM (#16069991)
You're saying that PBS and NPR get nontrivial amounts of money from the federal budget. Their ability to maintain that despite challenges (which have been effectively countered with pleas Mr. Rogers and Big Bird) is notably effective lobbying.

Extremely ineffective lobbying would be having elbow-patched public intellectuals testifying about federal funding's benefits on the broader Hegelian dialectic.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 04, 2018 @09:04AM (#16070354)
> You're saying that PBS and NPR get nontrivial amounts of money from the federal budget.

No, I'm not.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by superquest on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:29PM (#16067816)
Government cash is no cure for bias.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by MR4D on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:13AM (#16068214)
I’d take your thought one step further: Government cash is often a SOURCE of bias.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by tempestn on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:02PM (#16067683)
I don't know about cable news, but istm that's what most high quality, mainstream news outlets (eg NY Times) do. I mean, you can find editorial as well, but good papers tend to do a decent job of keeping that separate from journalism.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by prepend on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:07PM (#16067707)
While NYTimes might have been that once, I’ve seen multiple times where it’s pretty biased. I think the Iraq War was what broke me, but there’s lots of situations where there is editorial bias. It’s not necessarily liberal, just not based in reality.

I would really like an objective, original, pay news service. No ads. NPR is biased to US, BBC to the UK, Al Jazeera to UAE. I can sort of triangulate, but would like an objective source.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by aslkdjaslkdj on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:18PM (#16067767)
Do you have an example of a biased news piece from the NYT? (Not their editorial section or op-ed section).
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by wallace_f on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:44PM (#16067872)
The NYT has a long history of bias in favor of the major powers in the US: the military being one of them: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561532ade4b0fad1591a3193

Also, 'mainstream bias,' for lack or a better term, is still bias. Unjust death and arbitrary transfers of wealth via the military, healthcare lobbies, Wall St, and the Fed Reserve are not any different than murder or theft, they're just part of our economy and education, and our mainstream media sings their praises(it's true of all the mainstream media outlets): https://theintercept.com/2016/09/09/wolf-blitzer-is-worried-...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by humanrebar on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:57PM (#16067929)
You lost me at "unjust death... is not any different than murder..." Those are clearly different things to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by wallace_f on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:17PM (#16067997)
If a nation's military kills you for profit, that is no different than murder. But our healthcare lobbies also kill people, as do the banks and Fed. That is what I was trying to get at with a general statement, but failed to say accurately.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by humanrebar on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:28PM (#16067811)
There's a section on the NYT wikipedia article detailing many examples with footnotes. Including quotes of Times editors and reporters basically admitting as much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times#Accusations...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by eesmith on Thursday January 04, 2018 @02:53AM (#16068689)
There used to be a monthly news magazine to provide examples of the "Lies of Our Times" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_of_Our_Times
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by oceanghost on Thursday January 04, 2018 @01:16AM (#16068425)
Every article Paul Krugman has ever written?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by RickJWag on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:05PM (#16067695)
I beg to differ. A Harvard study confirmed that news sources have been overwhelmingly left-leaning, especially since Trump.

Even former President Jimmy Carter has said so.

So no, there is no unbiased, high quality mainstream media. There is only biased reporting from the right (Fox) and the left (just about everybody else).

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by hypersoar on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:15PM (#16067749)
Are you talking about this[1] study? Because it doesn't say that the media is "left-leaning". Rather, it says that their coverage of Trump has been more negative than positive (in the first 100 days, the period the study examines). Rather than the result of bias, it could simply be that he's done a bunch of obviously-bad things. Which one can certainly argue.

Another point: the article points out that, despite the overwhelmingly negative coverage, most of the time, they're using his own voice:

What’s truly atypical about Trump’s coverage is that it’s sharply negative despite the fact that he’s the source of nearly two-thirds of the sound bites surrounding his coverage. Typically, newsmakers and groups complain that their media narrative is negative because they’re not given a chance to speak for themselves. Over the past decade, U.S. coverage of Muslims has been more than 75 percent negative. And Muslims have had little chance to tell their side of the story. Muslims account for less than 5 percent of the voices heard in news reports about Islam.[31] So why is Trump’s coverage so negative even though he does most of the talking? The fact is, he’s been on the defensive during most of his 100 days in office, trying to put the best face possible on executive orders, legislative initiatives, appointments, and other undertakings that have gone bad.

[1] https://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-donald-trumps-fi...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by Clubber on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:08PM (#16067716)
>A Harvard study confirmed that news sources have been overwhelmingly left-leaning, especially since Trump.

Have a link? I know Fox is the most watched cable news network. I assume television is still the majority of the way Americans consume the news.

http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/fox-news-is-basic-cables-most...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by RickJWag on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:20PM (#16067774)
And here's the link to an article on Carter's quote.

Jimmy Carter has been in that seat, and he says the media has been harder on Trump.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by Clubber on Thursday January 04, 2018 @07:08AM (#16069731)
I agree on that part of the assertion, that they have been unnecessarily hard (WaPo mostly) on Trump, and they don't even have to be. It dilutes their credibility.

Being overly hard on Trump and being overwhelmingly left-leaning isn't necessarily the same thing though. I mean Lindsay Graham who is fairly conservative went on a Trump slam tour before the election. Mitt Romney did the same thing, as did other conservative leaders.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by citrus1330 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:43PM (#16067870)
While I would also appreciate a source, whether Fox is the most watched network doesn't really affect his statement.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by Clubber on Thursday January 04, 2018 @07:09AM (#16069735)
I agree, but the right wing news companies have been shouting this for 20 years, and I'm not sure if it's any more true today than it was 20 years ago.

I mean there is a reason Fox blathers on about being most trusted and all that, just like a used car salesman says, "trust me."

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by littlestymaar on Thursday January 04, 2018 @06:01AM (#16069380)
> So no, there is no unbiased, high quality mainstream media.

At the same time, the first unbiased & objective human being has yet to be found.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by pcwalton on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:08PM (#16067713)
Which study?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by RickJWag on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:16PM (#16067753)
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by majormajor on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:26PM (#16067801)
So conversative outlets that are much more critical of Trump than they were of Bush are now showing a liberal bias?

"Fox was the only news outlet in the study that came close to giving Trump positive coverage overall, however, there was variation in the tone of Fox’s coverage depending on the topic."

When you consider this line especially, with everything else, it seems more consistent with "Trump is unusually unpopular and criticized" than "the media is even more liberal now."

Maybe you should think about your own biases here, before continuing to equate "negative towards Trump" with "liberal/left"?

If I wanted to write a post criticizing Trump I'd have an incredibly easy time doing it from several right-wing perspectives: religious/moral, small government/individual freedom, anti-corruption/pro-transparency, take your pick. It's all fish in a barrel.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by RickJWag on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:54PM (#16067918)
It's a good point that it could be my own biases, or it could be that Trump really is terrible while Obama was just wonderful.

But I don't think those are it. When Jimmy Carter says the media is applying a different standard to Trump, it lends credibility to the idea that they just might be.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:54AM (#16068355)
> When Jimmy Carter says the media is applying a different standard to Trump, it lends credibility to the idea that they just might be.

Not really. Carter is a qualified expert in some things, but analyzing media bias is emphatically not one of them. Now, as a statement that seems at odds with Carter's assumed partisan bias, him saying it may be more credible as a genuine statement of belief than of a source said the same thing with either no obvious partisan bias or consistent with obvious partisan bias, but that's not the same as lending credibility to the claim itself.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by tempestn on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:42PM (#16068092)
I think it's true that the mainstream media may give too much play to stories about fairly innocuous things that Trump has done. I'm not sure that's much different than with previous presidents though. I recall Obama and Bush being criticized for some fairly silly things too.

I honestly believe the difference now is Trump itself. He's uniquely unqualified to be president on every intellectual or moral metric I would consider relevant. Therefore, an objective press would be expected to be far more negative than positive.

The other problem (or clever strategy on the right) is to paint mainstream outlets like NY Times or Washington Post as the 'other side', while basically ignoring truly left-leaning media, like Huffington Post or Vox. In doing so, they portray a spectrum where Fox and Breitbart lean to one side, and NY Times / WaPo lean to the other, with the unbiased position somewhere in the center - when in reality, the average of those publications is pretty far on the conservative side of the spectrum. (Even more so for those who actually believe Fox is 'balanced' and other mainstream outlets are in fact far left.)

I don't think it's necessarily impossible to do good journalism while being biased; I think Vox does a fair amount of good reporting for instance. It is necessary though to clearly distinguish between fact and opinion.

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by tempestn on Friday January 05, 2018 @02:10AM (#16077104)
Just noticed my "Trump itself" there. Wasn't an intentional slight; chalk it up to either a typo or a Freudian slip, as you like.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by pcwalton on Thursday January 04, 2018 @05:45AM (#16069306)
An equally plausible alternate explanation for the results of the study is that Trump's actions by and large have had negative consequences, and the media is accurately reporting them.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by Mtinie on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:15PM (#16067747)
Probably this one:

“News Coverage of Donald Trump’s First 100 Days”[0]

Summary:

“A new report from Harvard Kennedy School’s Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy analyzes news coverage of President Trump’s first 100 days in office.

The report is based on an analysis of news reports in the print editions of The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post, the main newscasts of CBS, CNN, Fox News, and NBC, and three European news outlets (The UK’s Financial Times and BBC, and Germany’s ARD).”

——-

https://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-donald-trumps-fi...

Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by viziviz on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:07PM (#16067702)
I mean, I'd watch it. But I feel like we're the minority. Sensationalism gets eyeballs gets ad revenue. The corruption is inherent in the system.
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by Buldak on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:12PM (#16067731)
This is surely naive, but what makes you think that isn't what Thiel sees himself as doing?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by thisisit on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:16PM (#16067752)
There are always two sides to an argument. How do you define objective reality?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by perseusprime11 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:29PM (#16067820)
Is there such a thing as objective reality?
Re:Peter Thiel Is Exploring the Creation of a Conservative C... by RickJWag on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:03PM (#16067686)
That would be the best. I wish it would happen.