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Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by jpatokal on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:38AM (#16051110)
Classic trams and modern light rail are different beasts.

Trams were popular worldwide back in the days where automobiles were far too expensive for most people and buses hadn't taken off yet, and since they were the only practical means of transport for medium distances, even small cities had massive ridership. They also ran right on the road, sharing space with cars, which was OK because there were a lot less cars and cars were not meaningful competition.

These days cars are affordable, and light rail has to be better than cars to be competitive, and do so well enough to entice a significant portion of the population out of their cars to be affordable. In practice this means dedicated right of way, which is far more expensive to purchase and fit out as a rail line than just laying some rails on an existing street. And of course modern safety, environmental and just plain bureaucratic regulations also inflate the prices of public works considerably compared to the good/bad old days, particularly in the US.

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by Al-Khwarizmi on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:07AM (#16051190)
Yes, that's a very good summary of what happened.

I'm aware of those factors, but I still think we took a wrong turn. Maybe not in the US due to the population sparsity and sprawl, but in Spain and many other European countries, if we could connect every town or city of more than 10K people by either rail, light rail or tram (instead of having spent billions on highways), that would cover 80% of the population. A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile. Pollution and emissions would be much less of a problem, and quality of life in cities much better.

But that's what happens with gradient descent, it can lead you to a local minimum...

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by toyg on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @08:35AM (#16051734)
If it can make you feel better, I know a lot of Italian cities are going back to trams in dedicated lanes. This is on the back of the clear advantages enjoyed by those cities (Rome, Milan) who didn't actually rip out all tracks after the last war.

There is an element of busywork too: local officials are always elected by promising change, they have to be seen doing something. So on odd years they put in something, and in even years they take it out...

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by zmk_ on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:24AM (#16052323)
Welcome to the Netherlands then. Most people ride trains between the cities. It does help, however, that most of the population lives in cities that are 30-40 minutes away on a train.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by smitherfield on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:40AM (#16052430)
The Netherlands is approximately the same land area and population density as the NYC metropolitan area[1], so it is (as you say) a very different environment from the entire US or even Spain.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/NY...

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by deanCommie on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:53PM (#16056642)
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Here are the areas overlaid: https://imgur.com/a/s9pq7

It's more like the area from New York to Boston

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by SAI_Peregrinus on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:21AM (#16059387)
Well, since smitherfield used the CSA (combined statistical area) it's actually rather close. 34,493 km^2 for the New York CSA, while Netherlands is 41,543 km^2. So about 83% of the size of the Netherlands.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by polartx on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @11:47AM (#16053080)
> that would cover 80% of the population. A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile

I'm sensing a bit of a Catch-22 in this hypothetical: How would the success of Uber-like services been impacted if 80% of the population no longer needed cars?

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by rtkwe on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:46PM (#16057027)
I still have the urge to put an asterisk by success for Uber because they're just burning piles of money still.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by golergka on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @09:10AM (#16051886)
> A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile.

They wouldn't need it, but I bet that majority would still want it.

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by lmm on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:30AM (#16052359)
In Europe? I doubt it. The car doesn't quite have the same cultural significance as a symbol of adulthood/independence here, at least not to the younger generation.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by wott on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:54AM (#16052531)
That's what they pretend. However, the reality is this:

* car sales do not drop, they oscillate depending on various governments subventions;

* vehicle fleet keeps rising (albeit slowly because the market is saturated);

* car owning per household has always been and is still on the rise (despite household size constantly decreasing);

* the distance travelled with cars keeps rising as well.

And visually, the amount of cars parked in the streets and along roadsides becomes insane. You already thought it was full 30 years ago, but now it is fuller.

Oh, and the cars become bigger every year. Not American-big, but still, on the way to it. For example, pickup trucks never took off in the French countryside in the last 50 years, not a single bit; but for a couple of years, it has started :-/

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by toyg on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @12:18PM (#16053334)
Three elements:

1) "suburbia" is now a thing in Europe too. Regular people cannot afford to live in city centres, they are the preserve of the wealthy. As population grows, more and more people are pushed further out, and they adopt suburbanization: big malls that cannot be reached if not by car, semi-detached houses in gated communities, etc etc. That's a lifestyle built for cars.

2) People will buy what manufacturers will sell. In a global market, car models are increasingly built with more than one country in mind. Inevitably, US tastes loom large.

3) The Hollywood influence cannot be underestimated.

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by clacke2 on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:58PM (#16058240)
> Uber-like services

That's a convoluted, backwards and very funny way of saying "taxi". :-D

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by micheljansen on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:26AM (#16052339)
Interesting take. Where I live (The Hague, Netherlands), trams are slowly turning into light rail systems. Where trams historically shared the roads with cars, they are now increasingly running on separate tracks (elevated or otherwise). This allows for different kinds of (more comfortable) trains, because they do not need to be built for collisions with cars.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by Doxin on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:58AM (#16051168)
> They also ran right on the road

Sidenote: so do many modern tram systems.

Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by jpatokal on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:48AM (#16051343)
Sure, but sharing right of way with cars is slow, dangerous and generally avoided whenever feasible.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by ams6110 on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:11AM (#16052231)
Yes, has all the disadvantages of a bus system with the added disadvantage that changing routes is tremendously expensive since you need to lay new track.
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by justinhj on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @11:08AM (#16052668)
See SF’s muni train for an example of this double disadvantage. the trains run slowly and unpredictably stopping at red lights with the traffic
Re:If We Can Put a Man on the Moon, Why Can’t We Put a Man o... by flukus on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @10:56PM (#16058229)
> with the added disadvantage that changing routes is tremendously expensive since you need to lay new track.

That disadvantage is actually a good thing when you're buying real estate, a bus route can change but my tram stop has much more permanence.

It also doesn't have to be an either/or thing, my local trams are dedicated in large parts but on road where congestion is lighter.