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Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by whack on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:06PM (#16036819)
"Tenured shareholder voting power, meaning that a shareholder’s votes would be proportionately weighted by the length of time the shares have been held"

I wonder if we're going to see the rise of holding companies just to get around this rule. "Our holding company owns shares in XYZ, and will never sell those shares ever. Instead of buying/selling XYZ directly, you can instead buy/sell shares in our holding company. We will confer voting power in XYZ, proportional to how many shares of our holding company you own, regardless of how long you've held them."

I suppose one way to prevent this loophole is to grant voting power only to individuals, and not entities, but that would screw over index-funds, mutual-funds, foundations, non-profit-endowments etc etc.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by phkahler on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:28PM (#16037352)
Your concern is only the tip of the iceberg. Any set of rules will be gamed. The only way I can think of (and it can probably be gamed) that would really put the long term into the executives mind is to have most of their compensation based on the value of the company a few years after they're done. But given the existence of options and shorting stocks and any number of ways to mitigate risk or make money that don't depend on positive outcome for the average investor, anything can be gamed.

With a shift to long term outcomes, one could do any number of things that are short term bad to line their pockets and claim the benefit is further down the road. The problem isn't really about short or long term goals - does Amazon or Tesla give a rats ass about profit next quarter? No, and IMHO one of those is a solid company while both have high valuations.

In some cases I think the answer is to strip investors of control. They are the ones allegedly pushing short term profits at the expense of the long term. But what is ownership if not a form of control?

Another thought I keep coming back to is dividends. A proper investment gives returns without having to sell your stake. Lets provide incentives for companies to share profit rather than pump stock prices, then everyone can get excited about the right things. This has its downside too in cases where growth may require reinvestment. Perhaps forcing dividend payments for all cash equivalents above some threshold? I dunno, there are a lot of ways to approach this and none of them are good for all companies.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by roenxi on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:49PM (#16038381)
> In some cases I think the answer is to strip investors of control. They are the ones allegedly pushing short term profits at the expense of the long term.

Hopefully this was a very fleeting thought; when it comes to ideas about changing corporate structure you couldn't really come up with a worse one. It is a complete violation of the skin-in-the-game principle that has so successfully propelled capitalist society for more than 200 years.

If management aren't accountable to the wishes of people who have proven they can preserve or grow piles of money, there will be economic waste on a colossal scale compared to what we have now. Corporate management would be overwhelmed by fast talking con men.

Turn your attention instead to the forces that are making short term decisions the better ones. I'm no expert, but if short-term thinking has been going on for a long-term time then something is more fundamentally wrong than "gee, people with money must just be stupid!". People don't seem to like accepting quite how rationally intelligent markets are - the only thing markets have been shown not to do well is make sacrifices for moral reasons.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by philipps on Sunday December 31, 2017 @06:20AM (#16040186)
> the only thing markets have been shown not to do well is make sacrifices for moral reasons.

Even reading this claim in the narrow context of the article it seems too broad. John Cassidy has written an insightful book “How markets fail“ that explains when markets do not generate optimal or desirable outcomes.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by saas_co_de on Sunday December 31, 2017 @07:46AM (#16040379)
> People don't seem to like accepting quite how rationally intelligent markets are

Because it is wishful thinking?

Where would the rational intelligence of stock markets be right now without the trillions of dollars in shares bought up directly by central banks and sovereign wealth funds or by corporations using essentially free money provided by central banks?

Last time I checked none of the economic theories about optimal markets included massive state interventions to help markets find the optimal price.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by Pica_soO on Sunday December 31, 2017 @06:55AM (#16040264)
Its is currently successfully propelling humanity over the edge, it got us all the beautiful places of the world- shortterm thinking is currently the modus operandi in Africa, the middle east, haiti- every hellhole on earth operation manual starts with "lets just figure this out short-term".

There is short-term thinking encoded into religion on this planet. Short term thinking in the end even extinguishes your beloved capitalism. If there is one thing we need less, its this. And if there is one thing, build to overcome short term thinking its abstract entity's like cooperation's and goverments. The individual is bound to fail here.

So yes, you have a valid point here, but instead of providing a solution, you just regress and suggest we go back to the drawing board and wing it while there?

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by phkahler on Sunday December 31, 2017 @12:09PM (#16041315)
It was a partly fleeting thought. Most people but into a company because they believe in what it is doing, it the people running it. Most investors do not try to exert control over companies. They buy in based on an opinion about what they're buying.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by chii on Saturday December 30, 2017 @08:44PM (#16038847)
But when does 'short-term' become 'long-term'?

If i make good (short-term) decisions each quarter, then won't that just add up to be a good decision after 4 quarters? If it turns out that the 'good' decision last quarter turned out to be bad _this_ quarter, then you'd make a change to fix it for _this_ quarter_.

Rather than plan out a 10 year plan, which you can't possibly predict in advance what may happen.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by vidarh on Sunday December 31, 2017 @06:32AM (#16040215)
Commodore is a wonderful example of how a number of "good" short term decisions turned into long term disasters.

E.g. one (of many) factor in Commodores decline and failure was that they at one point made a "brilliant" move of undercutting the competition in a way that drove massive sales while costing them dis-proportionally little in lost revenues from all of the hardware already in their channel.

Unfortunately it did that by cutting the feet under their dealer network by going mass market retailers and cutting the RRP in public, without giving retailers advance warning, and without giving their dealers rebates on product in their channel that had not yet been sold.

As a result their results looked good for a little while, but they bred so much resentment in their dealer network that it still haunted them years later when they suddenly badly needed that dealer network to push out the Amiga, which was released at a price point where the mass market discount retailers weren't suitable.

It took years for the total cost of that stunt to be visible, and even then it's hard to account for the total impact to the company even now, decades later.

It's not an easy problem.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by cf on Sunday December 31, 2017 @03:45AM (#16039892)
Buying lots of nice things on a credit card and racking up debt is a wonderful short-term strategy. At some point the mistakes you make in the short-term cripple you in the long-term. That's what all these efforts are trying to address. How do we make things that are costly long-term costly in the short-term as well?
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by clairity on Saturday December 30, 2017 @07:28PM (#16038543)
> Another thought I keep coming back to is dividends. A proper investment gives returns without having to sell your stake. Lets provide incentives for companies to share profit rather than pump stock prices, then everyone can get excited about the right things.

the psychology behind dividends is not on your side here. dividends are viewed by knowledgeable investors as a company admitting they have run out of good ideas to generate even more profit (aka growth). while dividends can be issued for a host of reasons, the common case is that dividends are issued when reinvestment in the company would generate diminishing returns. typically returns diminish when the company is no longer in a high growth phase, so the company gives the money back to investors to find better returns elsewhere for their risk.

this is why dividends are largely issued by larger, mature companies rather than growing ones. you just won't get most companies to issue dividends because it hurts their growth potential.

you have to change structural incentives to make people care about the long-term. one fundamental reason for this is that many people on wall street want to get rich quick, so there's enormous pressure for companies to be that vehicle, in exchange for which, the companies get rich quick too via their stock price (underlying fundamentals be damned).

why do people care so much to get rich quick? (rhetorical question) i personally don't respect such people, but apparently plenty enough do that my opinion simply doesn't matter as they seem to get the prestige and power they seek. if we all genuinely respected ingenuity, determination, and the ability to make things (not shuffle money around), we wouldn't use income & wealth as a proxy for those things and we wouldn't have perverse incentives that make companies seek short-term pops (high-minded, i know).

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by gaadd33 on Saturday December 30, 2017 @10:58PM (#16039271)
How many companies keep striving at things outside their actual core competency rather than issue dividends? For example, Facebook could have issued dividends rather than purchase Oculus Rift and I'm not sure that the company or the shareholders would have been worse off.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by danieltillett on Sunday December 31, 2017 @12:15AM (#16039463)
Facebook is in the business of eyeball monopolization. Any company at any chance of getting hold of a serious number of eyeballs is a threat if not purchased.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by saas_co_de on Sunday December 31, 2017 @07:53AM (#16040403)
Interesting thought. It might be better for investors if companies like Facebook just did what they are good at instead of trying to "stay ahead of the curve" and eliminate all future competitors. They are always going to fail at that game eventually anyway, so not trying at all might be better for investors.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by IgorPartola on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:34PM (#16037743)
I read somewhere about splitting control and ownership, but really you can’t. You either own a thing or you don’t. Time shares notwithstanding.

I do like dividend paying stock, but is that not a form of short term thinking? “May me my dividend this quarter, I don’t care when happens next year!”

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by phkahler on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:42PM (#16038139)
Dividends are the most reasonable way to get a return on investment. If you want to buy low and sell high, you're playing the greater fool game - why would anyone buy if you think it's time to sell. How should a company stock be priced? It's based on earnings, or in other words the ability to pay dividends. P/E ratio or price to earnings is a direct measure of the ability to pay dividends whether they pay them or not. At a PE of 20, the company could pay a 5 percent dividend. At a PE of 100 your stock purchase is misguided - you either expect the earnings to increase dramatically which would make the price more reasonable, or you expect someone else's investment decision to be more unreasonable than yours.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by charlesdm on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:50PM (#16038388)
I don't think I've ever bought a dividend share (just for the dividend) that has resulted in me getting an excellent yield. I'm personally not a big fan of purchasing stocks that fluctuate 10-20% up and downwards over the years while paying out, say, a 4% dividend. I'd rather put that money in a growth stock then.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by drveen28 on Saturday December 30, 2017 @07:06PM (#16038453)
> If you want to buy low and sell high, you're playing the greater fool game - why would anyone buy if you think it's time to sell.

Because they think it is going even higher?

"Fundamentals" are far from the only reason to be long an equity contract.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by jacques_chester on Saturday December 30, 2017 @10:03PM (#16039113)
> I read somewhere about splitting control and ownership, but really you can’t. You either own a thing or you don’t.

In common law countries, trusts law means you can distinguish between who has controlling interest and who has beneficial ownership.

So you can own a thing but not own the thing.

If I own something on trust for you, I can control it, but only in your best interests. If you own it on trust for me, I can benefit from the ownership, but without a lot of other legal effects that would normally ride shotgun with a full and undivided ownership.

As usual: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by charlesdm on Saturday December 30, 2017 @06:49PM (#16038383)
In this day and age, most dividend shares are often not worth holding just for the dividend. Growth shares tend to generate much better returns in most cases.

Buying a dividend share that can potentially go up however, is very nice though, such as when purchasing Apple several years ago.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by dweekly on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:36PM (#16038105)
Re: splitting control and ownership, don't non-voting GOOG shares exhibit exactly this split as one example?
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by ianai on Sunday December 31, 2017 @12:20AM (#16039475)
What’s stopping long term investing being based on bonds? Ie the company sells bonds today for a $x pay out 10 years from now. Maybe it’s secured by a t-bill. Maybe the investor pays the cost for a 10 year tbill plus some. The company agrees to pay out some operational profit from the 10 th year or the return on the tbill. (Back of envelop logic here, ymwv) Maybe make it more of a pool/fractional banking type arrangement. A clearing house company sells bonds of a company backed by some portion of tbills (10 year bonds for 10 year tbills, etc). At the end of the period either people are paid out the tbills (only if the company went belly up) or a percent of their operating profit from that period.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by nostrademons on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:18PM (#16037275)
It makes me wonder if we'll see a Gresham's Law effect as well. A financial services company creates a new fund ABC which exists solely to hold shares of LTSE company XYZ. Its fundamentals should be completely coupled with XYZ, except for the voting rights and restrictions on trading. ABC is then listed as an ETF, with no restrictions on trading, and weights votes on XYZ based on number of shares with no tenure restriction. Because new holders of ABC have more rights than holders of XYZ, all new trading would occur in ABC.

The LTSE serves its purpose of incentivizing long-term ownership of XYZ, but it's a pyrrhic victory: whenever an XYZ shareholder wants liquidity, rather than sell, they could borrow shares of ABC with their XYZ shares held as collateral (by definition, they have the same fundamentals) and short-sell the ABC. Or if they truly want out, they sell their XYZ shares to ABC (no other buyer would be interested, if they can get the same ownership claim with fewer restrictions by buying ABC directly), which then issues new shares on the normal public markets to maintain the peg. Either way, owners of XYZ are still incentivized to care about the short-term price movements of XYZ (through its ABC proxy) on the public markets, because they can achieve liquidity by proxy.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by jerf on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:26PM (#16036963)
It seems like sufficiently clever lawyering ought to be able to prevent this, by tying the voting power to the entity that has the right to obtain the benefits of the stock price going up. At the very least this prevents the LLC hack.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by eries on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:59PM (#16037159)
Nice to see someone thinking past the obvious loopholes. Our rules are a little more complicated than this, but you’re on the right track.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by runeks on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:08PM (#16037220)
> […] by tying the voting power to the entity that has the right to obtain the benefits of the stock price going up.

If I own shares in a holding company, which owns shares in an LTSE-company, don’t I have this right? If not me, who else?

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by maaaats on Sunday December 31, 2017 @05:03AM (#16040009)
That's the point. And as a new investor, your power would be less than that of the holding company.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by lozenge on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:16PM (#16037260)
In this case, I would have voting power for each of the thousands of companies in my pension plan.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by felipeko on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:22PM (#16037684)
Having more control would be valuable, and thus, more expensive. You will have to pay more in order to have more control, while you could pay less and earn the same.

It appears to me that it will, at least, make more expensive to think short term than long term, and that is the intended incentive of this stock exchange (as you could as well just buy more shares if you want more control).

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by erikpukinskis on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:25PM (#16036957)
Doesn’t that still achieve the goal? No one is dumping the shares on news cycles.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by pavel_lishin on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:51PM (#16037107)
The shares of holding companies would end up being the ones getting dumped.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by erikpukinskis on Sunday December 31, 2017 @11:16AM (#16041078)
How does that affect the held shares?
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by csdreamer7 on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:30PM (#16037722)
> I suppose one way to prevent this loophole is to grant voting power only to individuals, and not entities, but that would screw over index-funds, mutual-funds, foundations, non-profit-endowments etc etc.

Why not just block organizations that sell such a service as above be denied the benefit from increasing voting shares? Why ban all organizations instead of the ones trying to game it?

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by tomatocracy on Sunday December 31, 2017 @03:27PM (#16042714)
Probably not for the general case. Voting rights are almost irrelevant to the average shareholder in public equity (including institutional holders unless they have large blocks). If they truly disagree with management, they'll just sell instead and put their money elsewhere. It's both less work and less risky than trying to force change - management can ultimately simply say "feel free to vote us out if you disagree" knowing that that is extremely unlikely to ever happen because it's so incredibly rare that a large enough group of shareholders in a listed company feel strongly enough to go down that route.

Large institutional blocks will probably be structured this way because the cost of doing so is low so "why wouldn't you?". In fact there are companies out there where this is already the case as they have similar rules in their constitutional documents and the large blocks do indeed work that way.

There are actually many examples of companies where some shareholders are disenfranchised in one way or another (e.g. family ownership with special rights, minority listings, this type of scheme, 51% "Russian Dolls" holding companies, etc etc). Generally where I've seen these type of rules they serve to strengthen management against shareholders and entrenches the agency conflict to the detriment of the company's value over the long term.

Realistically, in a more typical listed company with a diverse shareholder base the only realistic option shareholders have is to force management out. The irony is that this rule acts to stop this from happening or slow it down and insulate management from that threat (further entrenching the agency conflict between shareholders and management).

Investors who are in the business of more actively engaging with management and strategy tend to do so away from public markets because it's not really that great a strategy unless you can gain significant control in terms of %age stake - so Private Equity, VC, family ownership, etc mostly tend not to be things that happen in publicly listed companies.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by nickparker on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:24PM (#16036945)
Nowhere near a lawyer here, but:

Would it be possible to contractually obligate any entities holding these stocks to also adopt tenured shareholder voting power?

Doing so would certainly improve the loophole situation, though I suspect it doesn't fix it entirely... Things probably get weird when you nest tenure effects.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by qubex on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:12PM (#16037643)
I don’t see how that could work generally. Sure, it might be possible to enforce by-laws when making a sale/purchase (but extra obligations would inevitably drive down the sale price), but what of situations in which collateral shares are foreclosed upon, they are inherited, or other non-voluntary transfers of ownership? What if one day they ended up even temporarily in the hands of a government (for example, the Italian government’s property and assets cannot by law by encumbered in such a manner). What then? The chain is broken.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by nickparker on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:48PM (#16038167)
OK right, you can't restrict ownership.

Would it be legal to simply grant extra rights to owners who adhere to the LTSE's rules? Ie, one share carries 1 'point' of voting power, unless the owner is an individual or an entity which adheres to the LTSE rules, in which case the share carries 1 + kt points of voting power.

If an entity outside the LTSE holds some shares, that's fine. They just extract very little value from them compared to an entity within the LTSE, increasing the value of all other shares outstanding and creating a strong incentive for that entity to sell back into LTSE.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by kbenson on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:36PM (#16037757)
> for example, the Italian government’s property and assets cannot by law by encumbered in such a manner

Well, depending on the country the LTSE is based in, and whether that law is honored through some trade agreement signed into law in that country, I imagine what the Italian government thinks about the issue is moot.

> what of situations in which collateral shares are foreclosed upon, they are inherited, or other non-voluntary transfers of ownership?

I'm wondering if they have or are considering a grace period where if the shares are reacquired within that period the voting rights remain the same. I imagine they definitely wouldn't want the rights transferred in the case of foreclosure.

Inheritance is an interesting one, but then again, it's only a problem if you take the view that your assets should all be transferred to your relatives on death. As with inheritance taxes, there are competing incentives. Maybe shares under a certain quantity could transfer over with voting weight intact, or maybe they should just lose half their time-based voting weight (or just have the time halved, which might still leave them in the top tier of voting weight).

There's lots of ways to structure it to achieve certain goals. I'm sure some would see new case law made.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by qubex on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:02PM (#16037885)
I’m going to harp on the Italian case (not because I am Italian and think it is the centre of the world, but because it illustrates just how broad one’s rules need to be to be dependable).

I am an Italian citizen. Say I own shares on the LTSE. Say I also owe the Italian government some back taxes, and that the government moves to expropriate my assets to cover my liability. My LTSE shares are now the property of the Italian government and have been shorn of whatever by-laws they might have had attached. The government then proceeds to auction off the components of my esistiate to the highest bidder, who purchases the shares without any obligation regarding his duties and structure.

This is why in general (in the mathematical sense, meaning ”in all cases”) the scheme you posit is not iron-clad. Probably it will work in most circumstances but that’s a lesser level of certainty that offers no guarantees whatsoever.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by evgen on Sunday December 31, 2017 @06:16AM (#16040173)
The contracts for share ownership can simply proscribe the conditions that trigger change of ownership for purposes of tenure. In such a case it would not matter if you sold the shares, gifted them, had them siezed, or offered them in a lottery -- change of ownership resets the tenure clock. In your example case, as soon as the shares were seized then for purposes of tenure they were sold by you to the Italian government to cover your debts.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by uiri on Saturday December 30, 2017 @07:14PM (#16038489)
Grant voting power only to individuals or to entities which follow the same voting power rules. This recursively enforces the rule.

A holding company like that would confer at most the same voting power as trading XYZ directly, but most likely strictly less voting power in XYZ.

A mutual fund which has only held XYZ for a short time would confer little voting power even to shareholders which have held it the longest.

Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by markvdb on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:12PM (#16037641)
Individual beneficial ownership as a criterium would widen your definition only somewhat. Plus you could give corporate shareholders non-voting shares I guess.
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by salty_biscuits on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:20PM (#16037997)
What does a bike race have to do with it :)
Re:The Long-Term Stock Exchange Comes to Life by wodenokoto on Sunday December 31, 2017 @08:06AM (#16040445)
You don't buy shares in the holding company, you'll buy shares in the shares.