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Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:34PM (#15975917)
The cities mentioned as being great for cyclists are Copenhagen and Amersterdam, and now Berlin is trying.

What is interesting is that the countries these cities are in Denmark, Netherlands, and Germany have fertility rates of 1.7, 1.7, 1.5 births/female [0].

In other words, people aren't having that many children. When transporting children, cars become a whole lot more convenient than bicycles. You don't have to worry about them getting too cold or hot or wet. You can easily transport 3 children in the back of a car without difficulty (try doing that on a bicycle). The car can easily carry all the diapers and baby food you need for an outing as well as changes of clothing for inevitable accidents kids make.

Bikes are awesome for adults without children, cars seem better for those with children, especially young children.

I wonder if this push to bike friendliness is driven in part by the changing demographics of more adults without children.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by fovc on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:44PM (#15975981)
If that were the case you'd expect that families with children in those cities wouldn't be bike users. In Amsterdam at least they very much were. I lived next to a primary school where 90+% of parents would show up on bikes to pick up their kids. You can easily transport 3 kids in a bakfiets
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by scythe on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:45AM (#15976721)
That's not statistically valid reasoning. If biking vs driving makes some people not have kids, but not everyone, then in a city where driving is prohibitively expensive you'd still expect most parents to be on a bike. That's because the others didn't switch to cars, they didn't have kids, or they moved. I don't know what riding with one of those bike chariots is like, but being confined to a bike already sucks, I assume dragging a kid around behind you is even worse.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by bkor on Thursday December 21, 2017 @09:51AM (#15979058)
You're assuming the cycling is causing people to have less children. It would be nice to provide some statistically valid sources to explain why you think that's so.

I live in the Netherlands and your assumption is pretty strange one. Mostly because it's not one or the other. You can do loads of things by bike while also having a car. Further, especially now with electric bikes you can transport an insane amount of children via a bike easily. Meaning: I see people transporting 5 or 6 children by bike (PS: this is on some fixed schedule, so not a one off, it is around the same time Mon-Fri).

A bike is often more convenient than a car.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by scythe on Thursday December 21, 2017 @11:04AM (#15979781)
>You're assuming the cycling is causing people to have less children. It would be nice to provide some statistically valid sources to explain why you think that's so.

No, I'm providing alternate explanations for an observation that the previous poster claims shows that cycling does not cause people to have less children. I don't need to prove it happens, just show it's possible. Of course the "burden of proof" will always be assumed to fall on me because I disagree with popular opinion.

I hope you enjoy the Netherlands. I never want to live in the Netherlands, and I'm sick and tired of people trying to turn the places I like into the Netherlands.

Biking sucks. I do not want to ride a bike. Take your self-righteous crap and fuck off.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by soperj on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:17PM (#15976404)
Sounds like you've never been there. I spent some time right outside Amsterdam (in Haarlem), and you can easily get a couple kids and a baby on a bike(in a bakfiets). You can easily carry all the diapers and baby feed you need for an outing in a stroller which is all you really need because nearly everything you could want is within walking distance.

-had 2 kids at the time(nearly 3 and 6 months), as well as cousins in town(same age) that we took on the bike as well, not that we used it that much, mostly to go out to another town like Zaanvoort on the coast (11 km away) or to the train station if we were going somewhere further.

Also, every single kid of school age got themselves to school by bike, so the whole pick up/drop up culture of North America wasn't happening.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by arximboldi on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:42PM (#15976496)
Agreed. Berlin is a very child-friendly city, and the biking is part of it. It is very common for parents to carry their kids in the bike. And heavy traffic makes the city less child-safe, not more.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by jacobolus on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:55PM (#15976029)
I have a 1.5 year old child, and I must disagree. Car-centric places are horrible with a child (or really anyone who isn’t a healthy ~20–65 year old adult who can afford a car). To get anywhere you need to pack all your stuff into a car, get the child in and out of a carseat, unpark and park, walk around in a big parking lot, etc. Every trip has huge overhead. It gets even worse when there are multiple kids involved.

Living in a walkable neighborhood with access to transit is so much nicer. I just pick the kid up in my arms and go out the door, and many destinations are a few minutes walk, all of which is time spent actively moving and being part of the outside world. In a couple years, if I need to drop him off somewhere within bike distance (but far enough away that walking is less practical), it would be great to use a child seat or little cart attached to a bike.

It’s going to be an even bigger difference when the kid is older, and can walk around and take transit and engage with the city by himself, instead of being completely isolated and dependent and needing to be chauffeured and chaperoned by an adult on every trip.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by abalashov on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:29PM (#15976178)
> It’s going to be an even bigger difference when the kid is older, and can walk around and take transit and engage with the city by himself, instead of being completely isolated and dependent and needing to be chauffeured and chaperoned by an adult on every trip.

This. I don't think most Americans realise how detrimental and significant this often-overlooked aspect of average middle American suburban life is.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by ocschwar on Thursday December 21, 2017 @10:50AM (#15979610)
Walking down an English high street with an intrepid 1 year old explorer was an eye opener for me.

(Translation: a high street is a main street in an English town. They're usually car-free.)

Every time my son bolted, I had a full 30 seconds of slack before having to chase him down because there was no risk of him being squished under a tire.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by kiliantics on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:45PM (#15975984)
I have family in Germany and they have two young children. They own a car but they only use it occasionally for trips. Their daily commute involves one of the parents transporting children to or from kindergarten using a bicycle trailer that both children can sit in. They do this year round and it works out fine. It works out a lot better, in fact, because cycling is much faster than sitting in rush hour traffic.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by imjasonmiller on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:45PM (#15976265)
Those trailers are very common in The Netherlands! Weather doesn’t play that much of a role, from what I know, neither does the fertility rate as cycling has been popular here when it used to be much higher, decades ago.

It is very much a cultural thing in my experience. Nearly all children go to primary and high school on their bicycles, by themselves, although the trips for high schoolers are often < 8 km I would guess.

I think that touches on why it might not be as popular in other countries, as other countries might not be as flat or lack city planning that takes cyclists into account, e.g. dedicated bike lanes.

It’s also an excellent choice for a country of our size that has limited space, as bicycles make much better use of it than cars.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by CalRobert on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:41PM (#15975963)
For what it's worth, I just had a kid and am contemplating whether I want to keep living in a cycling-hostile place. I would like my kid to be able to ride a bike without dying.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by nihonde on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:15PM (#15976125)
Anyone who lived in Japan knows about “mamachari” bikes, and a diminutive young mother with two kids and groceries on her bike. Not to mention all the senior citizens who ride everywhere as well. Electric-assist bikes, being able to ride on sidewalks or dedicated lanes, and safe parking help make it possible.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RLXnCu-KMdY

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by ekianjo on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:48PM (#15976514)
Poor example though. There is plenty of car traffic in Japan about everywhere, and parking yout bike is not free at all. And cyclists are super dangerous here, not respecting any rule on the road. I was almost hit by bikes going in the wrong direction several times. And mamachari riders are no exception. they speed up on the sidewalks without any regard for pedestrians.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by nihonde on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:30AM (#15976879)
Not my experience, but I don’t doubt yours in the slightest.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by lovemenot on Thursday December 21, 2017 @06:33AM (#15978041)
Me neither. I wonder where ekianjo has lived.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by ekianjo on Thursday December 21, 2017 @08:00AM (#15978446)
Check my profile. Maybe it's a Kansai thing.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by nihonde on Thursday December 21, 2017 @08:49AM (#15978690)
I’m in Kyoto. Previously, Nagoya.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by lagadu on Thursday December 21, 2017 @06:33AM (#15978043)
I take it you've never been any significant amount of time in Copenhagen. There a bicycles for transporting children that are made to transport up to two children, usually up to 3-4 years old, after that they can cycle themselves so I've never heard about it being an issue because the eldest will usually be old enough to cycle.

edit: I guess you could increase that to 3 children if you attach a bike trailer, but those aren't very popular here.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by rconti on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:58AM (#15976773)
You'll see this kind of arrangement all over Amsterdam and Copenhagen. Hell, even here in the SF Bay area I see (almost daily) a couple of parents on my bike commute route riding home with bicycles with those long racks on the back that can hold 2-3 kids, with a helmet dangling from the rack as they've obviously just completed the school run.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/7c/7a/917c7a6c31acf962cb21...

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by AndyMcConachie on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:29PM (#15976439)
As a Dutchie with no kids I must kindly disagree with you. Go to any Dutch city and you will see tons of parents riding on bikes with their kids. It's common to see 1 adult and 2 kids on the same bike.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by ekianjo on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:45PM (#15976500)
Go to any city thats not flat and you will soon find bikes to be unpractical for about everything.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by adrianN on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:43AM (#15976714)
You can get an e-bike a lot cheaper than a car.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by pg314 on Thursday December 21, 2017 @02:27AM (#15977080)
I live in a city that is not flat. If you have a bicycle with gears that is no problem.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by ekianjo on Thursday December 21, 2017 @08:01AM (#15978450)
When you have to carry several kgs of shopping bags as well as your kid in the back seat, no matter what gears you have you will soon reach your limits.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by brailsafe on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:08AM (#15976809)
That's where efficient and reliable public transit comes in, as well as living near a denser area.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by toomuchtodo on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:46PM (#15975988)
This is how I plan on transporting my two kids by bicycle when they're a bit older (electric cargo bike): https://yubabikes.com/

Disclaimer: no affiliation/promotion/etc

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by SirLJ on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:17PM (#15976136)
Try doing the same during the winter in the northeast or central US
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by kasey_junk on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:23PM (#15976160)
I live in Chicago and my family and our neighbors transport our children to school/stores/activities via bikes or feet. When the snow gets real bad we switch to sleds.

Anecdotally from observing my kids school I’d say that yuba bike linked is very popular. As are the Dutch bikes with the big front thing for hauling kids.

That of course relies on living in a place with infrastructure that enables it. Which is what Berlin is trying to build...

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by walshemj on Thursday December 21, 2017 @03:31AM (#15977323)
you mean a cargo bike not very safe for the kids though
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by kasey_junk on Thursday December 21, 2017 @07:48AM (#15978397)
This thing:

https://jclindbikes.com/cargo-bikes/nihola-family/

Not sure why it would be any more/less safe for kids.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by jdietrich on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:54PM (#15976304)
Plenty of people in northern Scandinavia cycle throughout the winter. With the right clothing and equipment, the weather isn't a particular problem. Many of the highest-rated cities on the Copenhagenize Index of cycle-friendly cities are far north. The highest-rated city in the US is Minneapolis. Malmö, Helsinki and Montréal also make the top 20.

http://copenhagenize.eu/index/

People from non-cycling cultures tend to badly under-estimate the quality of utility cycling equipment and over-estimate the impact of weather on a well-equipped rider.

Schwalbe Marathon Winter tires have hundreds of steel spikes and will grip securely even on black ice. SKS Longboard fenders provide a huge amount of protection from rain, spray and road grime. Lobster mittens keep your hands toasty warm in arctic conditions, while still allowing you to operate the brake and gear levers. Epicyclic gearhubs provide up to 14 gear ratios in a completely enclosed and practically maintenance-free package. Good LED bicycle lights are stunningly bright, rivalling the performance of car headlamps. A long john or Christiania cargo bike will comfortably carry two children, a week's worth of groceries or even a washing machine; with electric assist, these bikes are viable even in very hilly areas.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by jacobolus on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:24PM (#15976424)
As an aside, many of the LED bike headlamps I have seen (just like LED car headlamps and most LED hiking/camping lights) are unpleasant and a safety hazard. They are very bright in the blue part of the spectrum, which means they cause severely distracting/blinding glare for anyone else on the road, and knock out people's night vision. Personally I think they should be heavily regulated and forced to be less bright and maybe larger or more diffuse, with a more night-appropriate spectral power distribution.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by Steltek on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:38PM (#15976472)
I have a similar bike in Boston with two kids. It's not that bad; snowpants, good gloves, and adult wind breakers thrown around them gets you pretty far. The hardest part was getting the 2yo to wear a neck warmer or face mask when it was in the 20s. I imagine a trailer would be warmer and safer on ice. The long tail is just nicer overall.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by jacquesm on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:14AM (#15976621)
That's why we've got these:

https://www.christianiabikes.com/

https://www.babboe.nl/

They're so common that during the morning rush hour it seems like every other bike is a 'bakfiets'. They're a direct descendant of the old cargo delivery bikes from the previous century. There are two wheeled versions as well and then there are trailers to put behind normal bikes (though I don't like those much, because cars tend to overlook them due to their height).

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by sqren on Thursday December 21, 2017 @09:06AM (#15978799)
> You can easily transport 3 children in the back of a car without difficulty (try doing that on a bicycle).

I see this everyday in Copenhagen:

https://christianiacykel12.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/image...

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by adrianN on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:41AM (#15976708)
If people with children in their cars made up a majority of traffic that would be a good argument. Most trips are made solo though. Replacing at least some of those trips with cycling is better for everybody: the cyclists health, the environment, the children playing on the streets.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by tatami on Thursday December 21, 2017 @04:51AM (#15977599)
And for drivers! Less cars on the road makes it better for those who are left.
Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by Someone on Thursday December 21, 2017 @05:05AM (#15977656)
If you have >2 children, chances are the oldest can ride his/her own bicycle (especially if the infrastructure provides lots of safety)

Also, see https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/tag/children/

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by megy on Thursday December 21, 2017 @04:50PM (#15983119)
> When transporting children, cars become a whole lot more convenient than bicycles.

Cars are almost always more convenient for most people, with or without children.

Re:Berlin's Plan to Become a City for Cyclists by airza on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:27PM (#15976433)
It's an almost daily occurrence to see a parent riding their bike full of kids in Leiden or Amsterdam.