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Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by jeffdavis on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:28PM (#15974871)
Putting employers and schools at the center seems like the wrong approach. If there is a victim and a perpetrator, why can't it be handled in court between them?

Asking the employer/school to handle it is a recipe for injustice. Their interest is to limit their liability and favor their most useful employees, in that order. Justice is a distant concern.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by scarmig on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:51PM (#15975024)
Centering employers and schools in programs to reduce sexual harassment has developed as the consensus approach because it is where relatively privileged women (often rich, often white) are most keenly affected by it. That's despite the fact that, even once age-adjusted, students are victimized by rape at a lower rate than non-students.

Why not courts? Courts are constitutionally required to have a higher standard of evidence than other institutions. In the usual case where a rape has absolutely occurred, the evidence often amounts to he-said/she-said. That's rarely enough for a conviction. That's understandably deeply dispiriting to anti-rape activists, so they move activism toward places that can afford lower evidentiary standards.

Is that the right way? Who knows. But I think it may be best to treat sexual assault as an epidemiological problem. That's hard to swallow--after all, rapists are bad people and deserve severe punishment, not dry statistical treatments. But given how hard it is to "fairly" prosecute rape, treating programs to end sexual assault as interventions to decrease incidence and then measuring how effective they are seems like it may be more productive in the long term.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by forgotpassagan on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:01PM (#15975739)
Letting schools handle it because the standard of evidence is lower is insane. Rape is a serious crime, and suggesting we should lower the standard of evidence because it's hard to prove is appalling. The one thing more important than protecting potential victims is not punishing innocent people.

I know someone that was accused of rape years ago in school. Expelled, lost scholarships, reputation ruined. All from some 'arbitration board' with no trial. Thing was, the girl was a frequent liar and had a grudge against him for kindling a relationship then going off to date someone else. The group of friends connected to her, me included, all knew that. This guy was not the shady or violent type at all. He had never even been to court before that.

My friend even claims he was with him that night but since we lived in the same building he had no proof.

None of that mattered, they decided that he 'might be guilty' on her word and proceeded to ruin his life. The exact thing courts were created to prevent, arbitrary justice with no laws and a low standard of evidence.

Maybe we need a simpler solution. Cameras in all public areas of student housing would catch a much larger proportion of rape. But no, that's too simple, we need to change the laws so it's possible to get your life fucked on someone else's word

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by late2part on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:29PM (#15975882)
"Letting schools handle it because the standard of evidence is lower is insane. "

Thank you for saying it properly and so concisely.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by AstralStorm on Thursday December 21, 2017 @06:53AM (#15978142)
Cameras won't catch anything. Typical rape accusations involve places that are not covered or situations that would be complex to evaluate even given full footage.

And do we really want a society where everything is recorded? Just think of the abuse potential from camera operators.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by prepend on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:06PM (#15975127)
“Why not courts? Courts are constitutionally required to have a higher standard of evidence than other institutions. In the usual case where a rape has absolutely occurred, the evidence often amounts to he-said/she-said. That's rarely enough for a conviction. That's understandably deeply dispiriting to anti-rape activists, so they move activism toward places that can afford lower evidentiary standards.”

This is a really interesting idea. But how would you confirm sexual assault. Are you saying that “innocent until proven guilty” should be revised?

What other crimes do you think this should apply?

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by scarmig on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:26PM (#15975248)
I was being descriptive of why courts don't effectively adjudicate sexual assault now. I wasn't proposing any particular solution, because it is a hard problem.

As a thought experiment, you can imagine a world where courts are required to give instructions to the jury, telling them that they must always treat an alleged victim's testimony as a 100% accurate representation of the incident. That would make most sexual assault cases slam dunk. And it'd result in more guilty rapists being convicted, and very likely more of them than the number of innocent people falsely accused of rape.

Is that an appropriate use of institutions of justice? I don't think so. And it wouldn't be sustainable, as it'd weaponize accusations in a way that they're not now: you'd rapidly see people abusing it, and see a huge backlash.

But there's not an alternative justice-wise to that, which is why attentions are turned to other institutions that can only offer a slap on the wrist, but a slap on the wrist that can be based on very little evidence. No one is really happy with that reality, but no one has any better ideas.

That's why an epidemiological approach--running tests on everything from lights, to educational programs, to banning hard alcohol at school or work sponsored events--seems like the best way out of this hole to me.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by belorn on Thursday December 21, 2017 @04:48AM (#15977587)
Running tests is nice as long you hold the experimenters accountable to actually measure the effect.

For example, educational programs sound as a rational idea until you look at older studies that looked at the effect of increasing the punishment for crime. As I recall there were no effect for most form of violence, including sexual violence, with the researchers conclusion that much crime don't follow rational planning. If the criminal don't do a risk vs reward analysis before the crime, then increasing the punishment won't have an effect on the thought processes. Similar education and work sponsored events is unlikely to help if the action is irrational and involve a lot of self-delusions.

I can see how mores lights and banning hard alcohol can work. People have a emotional reaction to light, and drugs/alcohol operate on the part of the brain that handles social interaction and inhibitions.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by sheepmullet on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:57PM (#15975726)
> That's why an epidemiological approach--running tests on everything from lights, to educational programs, to banning hard alcohol at school or work sponsored events--seems like the best way out of this hole to me.

The problem is the methods that are most likely to be effective are considered victim blaming.

E.g. Teaching women how to directly and clearly say no.

Or making it socially inappropriate to get blind drunk.

Etc etc.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by scarmig on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:14PM (#15975809)
I agree. Any effective strategy to reduce rape will involve the participation of victims, but all too often their advocates treat any guidelines as a way of saying "if you didn't get so blackout drunk, you wouldn't have been raped!" And so those types of educational interventions are underused.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by dragonwriter on Thursday December 21, 2017 @09:46AM (#15979032)
> What other crimes do you think this should apply?

There are lots of individual torts and crimes which employer or school failure to prevent or respond to creates tort liability for the institution in the same manner as sexual harassment and which therefore employers and schools practically must deal with through both prevention and responsive policies that do not wait on the legal system. For one large class, pretty much all acts of violence fall into this category.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by mcguire on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:57PM (#15976041)
Are you jumping from sexual harassment to rape? One of those is usually a civil matter when courts do see them.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by busterarm on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:10PM (#15976377)
I just want to draw attention to a certain chain of logic in one of your sentences...

    > usual case
    > rape has absolutely occurred
    > evidence often amounts to he-said/she-said
All of these things can't be true.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by gizmo686 on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:31AM (#15976668)
I don't think point 2 is that we have evidence that rape had occured. Rather, the (intended) claim was that even when a rape occurred, the evidence available would amount to he-said/she-said.

I read "absolutely" in this to exclude cases where the question is not one of facts, but of definitions. Eg. if the victim was somewhat intoxicated, both sides can agree exactly on the facts of what occurred, but disagree if the victims consent was valid.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by busterarm on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:40AM (#15976702)
"Rape Kits", or rather, the standardization of process for collecting evidence after a sexual assault, are surprisingly good at collecting usable (convictable) evidence after a sexual assault.

The biggest problem with them is that roughly half of them go untested. When they are tested, however, they're actually incredibly good at the successful prosecution and conviction of sexual assault cases.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by gizmo686 on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:57AM (#15976761)
When the rape was reported soon enough for evidence to be collectable; and when it was a form of rape that leaves a distinctive mark relative to consensual sex. I do not know how prototypical these both of these conditions are; but at most, you would reduce the "usual" qualified to "non-negligible", as there certainly are cases that do not meat the criterion to have a usable rape kit.

(Unrelated note, in writing this comment, I tried looking for relevant statistics; but found I have no idea what to even search for. Anyone have anything?)

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by scarmig on Thursday December 21, 2017 @11:28AM (#15980107)
Sure they can. It can be possible for a rape to have occurred, but for there to be no evidence beyond the victim saying so. That's the most usual case, and why dealing with rape is so hard.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by cafard on Thursday December 21, 2017 @09:33AM (#15978954)
Relatively privileged? Schools, perhaps, but what about waitresses and retail staff?
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by scarmig on Thursday December 21, 2017 @11:23AM (#15980054)
Waitresses and retail staff are likely among the most susceptible to sexual harassment and violence.

They have much less access to media firestorms, large cash settlements, and other protective measures than high prestige jobs.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by scoggs on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:51PM (#15975393)
They are already the two most likely candidates involved who would want to sweep things under the rug. Bringing attention to those type of situations going on in the workplace, hell even less severe stuff like basic crime, is not what schools and businesses want to do.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by dragonwriter on Thursday December 21, 2017 @09:43AM (#15979013)
> Putting employers and schools at the center seems like the wrong approach. If there is a victim and a perpetrator, why can't it be handled in court between them?

Employers and schools are at the center because sexual harassment is sex discrimination in employment or education, and thus rightfully creates liability for the employer and school under anti-discrimination laws.

The individual acts by which that discrimination is carried out may also be crimes or torts, aside from being a component of institutionalized discrimination, and when they are, that is absolutely addressable in legal action between the parties (for torts) or between the State and the criminal aggressor (for crimes).

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by ams6110 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:53PM (#15976023)
Reasons why the courts don't handle all these cases include lack of capacity, and because nobody has a right to an education at a particular school or a job with a particular company.

As long as they follow a defined process in each case, private organizations can generally adjudicate disputes internally. Because the limit of what they can do is expell or fire you, the stakes are lower and so is the burden of proof compared to what is needed for a criminal conviction.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by jeffdavis on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:20AM (#15976637)
Unless the adjudication is secret, it creates a weird problem: what starts out as an unknown ("did the harassment happen or not?") becomes a fact ("he was fired for harassment"). That fact could follow the accused the rest of their life, and others may make judgements based on it, even if the original harassment claim was bogus and the adjudication a charade. Even of the accused finds exonerating evidence later, there would be no process to reverse it.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:49PM (#15975013)
> ... why can't it be handled in court between them?

If you're falsely accused, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to defend yourself?

If you're harassed, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to accuse the perpetrator?

That's why it should be handled in court only as the last resort.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by chroem- on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:52PM (#15975035)
It's much harder to make false accusations in a court of law.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by tptacek on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:54PM (#15975700)
It's much harder to make any accusations in a court of law.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by ams6110 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:59PM (#15976050)
Right, because as an individual you can't make an accusation in criminal court. That is done by a prosecutor, who will have to be reasonably confident that he has sufficient evidence to get a conviction.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by tptacek on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:12PM (#15976101)
You've confused "court of law" with "criminal court". Most sexual harassment claims are civil, not criminal.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by busterarm on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:35PM (#15976461)
> If you're falsely accused, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to defend yourself?

Versus losing your ability to receive higher education or an income in your industry (or period?). Seems like a real no-brainer choice to make there.

Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by pharrington on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:41PM (#15975341)
Certainly, which is indicative of a larger, fundamental problem the US currently has in trying to be a nation beholden to the rule of law.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by mudil on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:59PM (#15975435)
That's a circular argument. On the other hand, all other disputes and infractions are handled in court. Say someone's daughter is sexually harassed on a neighbor's lawn. Is the lawn the place to investigate and punish the accused?
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by prepend on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:33PM (#15975282)
I think the idea is criminal courts, not civil. So prosecution would be free, but expensive to defend yourself.
Re:The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Doubl... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:31PM (#15975899)
It is my impression that most harassment does not rise to the level of criminal. (I could be wrong, though.)