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Re:E Pur Si Muove by Buldak on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:46PM (#15927973)
The author says that it's safer to discuss "controversial" ideas in Beijing than America, but I wonder if that's partly because the ideas in question aren't actually controversial in Beijing. Presumably the ideas the author has in mind are those that might be interpreted to impugn certain disadvantaged groups. But if I found it more easy to say "gay people are degenerates" in Beijing, I don't think I would take that as evidence that free speech norms are more robust there--it might just mean that homophobia is the norm.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by mephitix on Thursday December 14, 2017 @08:58PM (#15929137)
Yeah, whatever points this article had were completely marred by terrible examples.

Saying it's easier to talk about things in China vs US. I've been to China and you can get thrown in jail for saying the type of things we say re. our political environment. My friends there have to speak in whispers in public while people in SF have no problem raging about our politicians.

And saying we should "allow people to say disparaging things about gay people if we want them to be able to say novel things about physics". At its least a really poor choice of words there. The choice of words makes it sound like it's okay to stand aside while they spout bigotry. Perhaps he meant it's okay to say it, but we should argue against it - but unfortunately for him that point was not made because the intention of the article was to support free speech. Bad example.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by ethbro on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:18AM (#15932378)
> Yeah, whatever points this article had were completely marred by terrible examples.

The article isn't that complicated. He meant to say exactly what he did say.

Which makes sense, given the entire point of tolerating free speech is that people are free to say terrible things, not "moderately uncomfortable" things.

Executive summary: (1) Open societies are more innovative. (2) Silicon Valley is becoming less tolerant of divergent viewpoints. (3) This is primarily culture-driven, but will likely have an effect on innovative science, which by definition starts as sounding somewhat crazy.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by GuiA on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:56AM (#15932657)
> (2) Silicon Valley is becoming less tolerant of divergent viewpoints.

As measured by what? Are there people being jailed for expressing a divergent opinion, or being refused service in restaurants/hotels/shops/etc, or unable to find employment?

For the latter point, employment, some people are likely to pick one of the few examples that routinely get reused in this discussion - such as Damore + Google, or Eich + Mozilla. But are these kind of things actually happening at an increasing rate? Because I recall similar things happening in the 2000s, and 90s, and I wasn't around before but they likely did too (and go back a few decades earlier, and it'd be saying something like "women can be engineers just like men" or "black people can be doctors just like white people" that'd get you ostracized, so yeah). So unless you have actual data showing that there has been an increase in people getting fired/being denied employment in the past 5-10 years for having divergent viewpoints, there's nothing there.

If your main measure for "less tolerant of divergent viewpoints" is "people being mean to you on Twitter", well yeah, that's part of living in an open society. In fact one could equally argue that people feeling more empowered to call out things they disagree with is the very hallmark of an open society.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by mentat on Friday December 15, 2017 @03:52PM (#15934993)
People are actively trying to make others "unemployable" so, yes, unable to find employment.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by ethbro on Friday December 15, 2017 @02:38PM (#15934397)
My main measure for that happened is that Sam Altman feels like that may be happening.

Appeal to authority, but I admit he's in a better place than I to see whether it is or isn't in funding circles.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday December 15, 2017 @03:20AM (#15930388)
> I've been to China and you can get thrown in jail for saying the type of things we say re. our political environment.

It's jail vs sacking; different aspects of the same reaction.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by mephitix on Friday December 15, 2017 @03:14PM (#15934691)
Huh? In SF I can walk down the street or go into a restaurant and hear people saying how bad Trump is. In China if someone hears you, they will report you and you will be taken in. How in the world is this the same reaction?
Re:E Pur Si Muove by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:06PM (#15936404)
Try explaining to your colleagues at work that the distribution of certain traits is slightly different in different genders and see what happens. In at least one company this didn't go well. The reaction is the same because those in power punish instead of explaining, only the aspect is different. Obviously I much prefer the SF version as at least I'm not in jail and can look for work somewhere else, but the feeling of lost freedom is in there, in many people.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by renaudg on Saturday December 16, 2017 @10:56AM (#15940064)
That's a pretty terrible example. Instead try telling people in SF how great Trump is, and see how many friends you make.

(Not that this reflects my opinion of Trump.)

Re:E Pur Si Muove by Veelox on Friday December 15, 2017 @11:51PM (#15937774)
To give another example, imagine if the in a short while the Supreme Court rules that in favor of the CO baker and says that he is not compelled to create a cake for a gay wedding. Would you feel safe expressing support for the decision at a lunch with your team?
Re:E Pur Si Muove by volgo on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:10PM (#15929188)
A lot of people think you have to watch what you say in China, and they almost always are people who have never been there. There are very specific political things you can't do, but otherwise literally not one gives a shit about you. You can say what you want, and unless you specifically go organize a large group of people and screaming in public something politically sensitive, no one cares. Ideally in a society we don't want those people anyways.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by jaredklewis on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:40PM (#15929524)
We don’t want organized political activists? Maybe you don’t, but I would say the US, for example, is better off thanks to Rosa Parks, MLK, and those other pesky people that “go organize a large of people and scream in public something politically sensitive.”
Re:E Pur Si Muove by unityByFreedom on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:38PM (#15929703)
> You can say what you want, and unless you specifically go organize a large group of people and screaming in public something politically sensitive

note: screaming includes what we would call "organizing" and "protesting", including simply using online groups to form such protests.

So, yes, you do have to watch what you say. If you criticize the government for corrupt police or a chemical plant explosion that caused unjust deaths, you can expect to be locked up for an unspecified amount of time and forced to sign a confession of wrongdoing.

Heck, even if you're outside of China you have to watch what you say. Book dealers in Hong Kong have been abducted and held indefinitely in China for selling the wrong books. So much for "one country, two systems"

Re:E Pur Si Muove by acjohnson55 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:15PM (#15929213)
I found that to be the case in Cuba. It actually felt more liberating than a typical American city, in that I could walk down the street alone drinking a beer at night in the middle of the city without fear. However, I also know that, like most totalitarian regimes, they'll allow a good bit of flex until they decide not to anymore, and then the crackdown is swift.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by tomaskafka on Friday December 15, 2017 @09:07AM (#15931844)
You should try central Europe - you can walk the city with beer in hand AND not have a dictator that can imprison you for life for banality.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by jetcata on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:17AM (#15932370)
As a tourist that's how you felt, but did you speak to the people who live there? What you'll find is a people scared to criticize their dictatorship government, which is incredibly rich and lives a life of luxury whilst their citizens are very poor.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by acjohnson55 on Friday December 15, 2017 @02:23PM (#15934287)
Yep, I did. In fact, our government-provided tour guide was pretty open about that. I'm sure he felt that he could be open with us because the government largely doesn't care that much about micromanaging the impressions tourists get. So monitoring what he tells us simply is not a high priority. They care about long-term domestic control.

My point was just that for any short amount of time in most totalitarian states, you're unlikely to encounter the arbitrary crackdowns that have a chilling effect on free expression for people who live their permanently.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by phantomathkg on Friday December 15, 2017 @02:35AM (#15930248)
Care to clarify what do you mean by "Ideally in a society we don't want those people anyways."? Everything happens around you and me are politics. Do you really think a 1984-like PRC is best of the citizen there. I don't think so.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by simonbyrne on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:25PM (#15928311)
Also, perhaps the authors status in San Francisco means that any comments he makes will be more likely to get attention (and hence criticism) than in China.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by pavlov on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:58PM (#15928563)
In China, the author is a visiting foreign multimillionaire — the type of person whose conversation will be enthusiastically received no matter the content.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by squarefoot on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:03AM (#15931455)
That would likely be the reaction in whatever country he was visiting. Being multimillionaire and foreign makes the difference.

Contracts with government == money+jobs == votes -> power.

Contracts with politician owned company == money -> power.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by jbigelow76 on Friday December 15, 2017 @12:48AM (#15929898)
I thought it was ironic that earlier today I read an article about China's (by way of private companies) "Social Ranking" score from Wired[1], part of it entails journalist Liu Hu being part of the "Supreme People's Court black list" and the fallout that it entailed.

It's convenient to be a tourist sometimes.

1. https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/

Re:E Pur Si Muove by RonanTheGrey on Friday December 15, 2017 @02:02PM (#15934149)
Holy sh that is incredibly disturbing.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by stevenwoo on Friday December 15, 2017 @07:39PM (#15936564)
The challenge Sam Altman would not dare - try to go to Tiananmen Square on June 4th and talk about what happened in 1989.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by thowar2 on Friday December 15, 2017 @10:52AM (#15932613)
The range of controversial subjects in China is incredibly narrow, but the punishments worse.

For the most part, no one in your every day life gives a shit what you say or do.

For Americans and nationals of other privileged countries there is even more tolerance for the controversial subjects.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by marme on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:42PM (#15928457)
this is exactly the case. Try saying "taiwan is an independent country" in beijing and see how well that statement is received
Re:E Pur Si Muove by xster on Thursday December 14, 2017 @08:03PM (#15928920)
Seems like a sensible theme to explore but is this data or conjecture? I'd make a similarly anecdotal conjecture that you'd be met with rigorous debate but your social character standing won't be affected by bringing this topic up, nor would it be socially acceptable for your opponent to use ad hominem at any point. This is the theme the author is addressing.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by johnny22 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:06PM (#15929400)
but one can put you in jail and the other can't.
Re:E Pur Si Muove by echaozh on Friday December 15, 2017 @02:58AM (#15930319)
Saying Taiwan is another country won't put you in jail. Unless you're actually working towards this goal.

Saying hiring more male software engineers may not be that wrong, however, do put you out of your job.

Re:E Pur Si Muove by a_bonobo on Friday December 15, 2017 @12:34AM (#15929858)
Even Justin Bieber is banned because 'he has engaged in a series of bad behaviours, both in his social life and during a previous performance in China, which caused discontent among the public', and he isn't even politically active or anything. China's public sphere is highly controlled.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/21/justin-bieber-...

Re:E Pur Si Muove by a_bonobo on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:34AM (#15930658)
Or this, just showed up on my Twitter stream:

>A Chinese man has been jailed for a year for stamping on a portrait of Mongol ruler Genghis Khan, after being found guilty of inciting ethnic hatred.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42364214?ocid=socialflow_...

Re:E Pur Si Muove by bmc7505 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:19PM (#15928699)
> it might just mean that homophobia is the norm

Or it could mean nobody understands your English. Does @sama even speak Chinese?