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Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by hug on Monday December 11, 2017 @04:52PM (#15900853)
Nintendo is a toy company. You don’t buy their hardware thinking that you’ve got a device which is going to take over your living room, delivering television and games and voice recognition and baking you cookies. You buy a big ol’ expensive toy. The kind meant for kids, but also the kind that’s such a good toy that you’ll love it even if you’re not a kid.

The Switch, of course, did it perfectly. Daaaaaad don’t want to go out I haven’t reached a save poi... oh wait. Can’t play Switch because your mother is watching TV? Yes you can. Want to play Mario as a fun, motion controlled casual scroller? Yep. Want to play Mario as the single best speed-running title around with a pro controller? That too.

The Wii was a fantastic toy! Well executed motion controls, with games that took advantage: The kind of game that a six year old and sixty year old could play against each other in a fair match.

The DS, a plasticy clamshell with the heritage of the bomb proof gameboy, was in the hands of kids everywhere, that graphics by necessity somewhat simpler, but no less satisfying.

And then: the Wii U. It was not whatever the aforementioned things were, or maybe it was in a failure-of-execution sort of way. I never saw a kid particularly excited about playing the Wii U. Too much video game, not enough toy.

The Switch doesn’t have gimmicks, it has features. It’s not a primarily first-party console, it has hundreds of indie games on the Eshop from a dollar up. It’s not great because it can be played in the hand and on the TV, it’s great and it can do those things.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by theDoug on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:20PM (#15901678)
Nintendo is also a 128 year old entertainment company.

These are some of its recent toys, and to their credit it seems to me they deeply understand (like Disney) how to serve as a home for beloved characters and re-release new twists on their adventures across decades.

Other characters, now homeless with their platforms and companies shut down, now make appearances in the Nintendo-world.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by kbenson on Monday December 11, 2017 @10:31PM (#15902803)
> And then: the Wii U. It was not whatever the aforementioned things were, or maybe it was in a failure-of-execution sort of way. I never saw a kid particularly excited about playing the Wii U. Too much video game, not enough toy.

Well, my kids love it, and it hits a few of the points you mention. My 8 year old son loves the fact he can play with a few friends (or his sister and a couple friends. They play Minecraft on it all the time, and when it's just him and someone wants to watch TV, he uses the Wii U tablet to play without a TV. It really is the midpoint between a Wii and the Switch. Add to that stuff like Just Dance and New Super Mario Bros (which allows 4 players at once, in coop or less than cooperative styles), and it really is a good toy for groups of kids.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by rhizome on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:06PM (#15900960)
Excellent comment. "Resurgence" only makes sense in a business horserace, or in measuring media coverage.

Nintendo has always been going strong, knows exactly WTF they're doing, executes with precision more or less, and is pretty much always successful. A resurgence in attention has nothing to do with the company.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by giobox on Monday December 11, 2017 @07:49PM (#15902191)
> Nintendo has always been going strong, knows exactly WTF they're doing, executes with precision more or less, and is pretty much always successful

Perhaps, but I'd definitely class the Wii U as a misstep - sold poorly and clearly wasn't the right device for the market at that time. I really don't think Nintendo was sure at all what it was doing with the Wii U.

I've seen some theories that the reason the Switch has been so great is that given the relative failure of the Wii U they didn't have time to screw up the Switch with the usual supply of badly implemented software features that Nintendo have a bad habit of doing. Unlike the Wii, 3DS etc there is no step counters, web browsers, virtual console, streaming services, audio recorder, pointless low quality stereo cameras etc at launch on Switch - just a simple, lean focus on fun games. The 3DS and Wii were especially bad for pointless built in extra software. I'd honestly be perfectly happy with my Switch if none of those features, perhaps with the exception of Virtual Console, ever come back.

I also love how Nintendo are really embracing the indie game community with the Switch, a pleasant surprise given the less than brilliant relationship Nintendo has had there in the past.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by jacobush on Monday December 11, 2017 @08:06PM (#15902265)
And Wii U would have succeeded, had they called it something else. Most people were like, oh a "Wii"? Got one already, check, keep browsing for Christmas presents...
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Impossible on Monday December 11, 2017 @08:34PM (#15902390)
Product differentiation was a big problem for Wii U. At one point a friend of mine asked me how much a Wii would sell for, this was well after the Wii U launch. I asked "Wii or Wii U" and she said "What's a Wii U?". The Wii U Gamepad failed at delivering the play however you want, whenever you want, experience that the Switch successfully executed on. It was the right direction but the implementation wasn't quite useful enough. I wouldn't have bought a Switch if I couldn't play it as a handheld, for example.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by EtienneK on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:33AM (#15904758)
Yup. Scumbags broke into my house and stole my Wii-U (among other things). Insurance kept quoting me for a Wii... Had to correct them on numerous occasions.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by jacobush on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @02:21AM (#15903641)
Also true, but my main point was that they even managed to miss the people who always buy the latest and greatest gadget for their grandchildren. Free money. On the table.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by cholantesh on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @12:07PM (#15907203)
Interesting argument, but it doesn't explain how MS and especially Sony get away with it every few years.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by freehunter on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @12:53PM (#15907744)
The Xbox and PlayStation appeal to a different audience, one more in tune with how gaming works. The Wii appealed heavily to non-gamers.

PlayStation is easy. One, two, three, four. Not hard to tell the difference. Xbox is a bit stranger, but still easy to tell apart because against its numbered and we’re used to numbered things being different from each other.

But Microsoft is headed down a Wii U-like path with the Xbox One... even as a gamer (who admittedly doesn’t own an Xbox), I have no idea if the Xbox One S is newer than the Xbox One X or what the difference actually is, and it’s not intuitive that the Xbox One S is actually appreciably different than the Xbox One other than being smaller.

Sony may find themselves in a similar pickle if people stop buying PlayStation 4 games because they’re unsure if they work on their PlayStation 4 Pro Or vice versa.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by giobox on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @02:25PM (#15908630)
At this point I'd argue Sony/MS are like the General Electric of the gaming industry - a huge whale making a ton of products used by the industry at large, but not products anyone thinks are actually that innovative or interesting. The PS4 basically wins almost by default given the size of the installed base, and it has the titles a sizable slice of the market care about.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by ataylor32 on Monday December 11, 2017 @09:42PM (#15902632)
I hardly play any video games. When I heard about the Xbox One X, I figured it was the successor to the Xbox One like the Wii U is the successor to the Wii, but I found out that it's actually a high-end version of the Xbox One. It can be confusing!
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by marpstar on Monday December 11, 2017 @08:28PM (#15902368)
Agreed. It wasn't until about a year after it was released that I realized it was a different system. It seemed like a new controller for the original Wii.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by kbenson on Monday December 11, 2017 @10:35PM (#15902819)
> I'd honestly be perfectly happy with my Switch if none of those features, perhaps with the exception of Virtual Console, ever come back.

Perhaps? Man, the virtual console is a major draw for me. I only have a few games on it, but I view it as integral to the device. Every Nintendo platform needs a way to play the first four Super Mario titles, the early Zeldas, Metroid and Super Metroid at a minimum.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Feniks on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:19PM (#15901085)
GameCube and the WiiU?

Nintendo owns its survival on handhelds. Pokémon prints money since 1996.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by throwawayfinal on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:43PM (#15901358)
Gamecube was a success. It wasn't a wild success. It also was the hardware foundation for the Wii (seriously, the wii is a gamecube and an arm chip smashed together).

Wii U was probably profitable. Not a success like a company like Nintendo needs, a strategic misstep that didn't impact their fortunes significantly. Hardware-wise it was a very direct descendant of the Wii (and gamecube). Relatively low development cost. The games developed for it are being ported to the switch to great success.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Crisco on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:27PM (#15901730)
Just a quick correction, the Wii was still PowerPC based like the GameCube. It just took both the GPU and CPU and upped their power a bit, but was not different from the GameCube in any real significant way.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by IntelMiner on Monday December 11, 2017 @10:02PM (#15902695)
The Wii did have a few distinctions from the GameCube. However they abstracted them in an interesting way

The Wii itself was still a G3 PPC chip, just add a few hundred Mhz

It also had more RAM (which allowed the "Twiizers" attack over a decade ago)

All the Wii-centric functionality (USB, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, SD card, etc) was abstracted away inside an ARM co-processor inside the GPU. Named "Starlet" by the homebrew community

Wii software was then written that would simply poke at the API's it exposed to add that functionality

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Crisco on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @03:43PM (#15909280)
Ah, yeah totally forgot about starlet. It's been a while since I messed around in the Wii homebrew scene, but that was basically got me interested in cybersecurity in the first place when I was in middle school. I should go back and look at it now that I actually know what I'm doing (more or less).
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by megaman22 on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @12:56AM (#15903294)
Pokemon is the most compelling property that Nintendo owns. It's a little baffling that they haven't embraced it as a console rpg
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by johnhenry on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @03:08AM (#15903825)
That comment reminded me of a failed Pokemon RPG and inspired me to find this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Qx0eP8uVo. Thanks!
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by rainbowmverse on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:45PM (#15901373)
Nintendo follows a similar pattern to Microsoft where they alternate between failures and wins. Also, Nintendo doesn't own Pokémon.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by wlesieutre on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:58PM (#15901488)
Nintendo, Game Freak, and Creatures Inc. are coowners of The Pokemon Company, but Nintendo is the sole owner of every related trademark.

It might be possible for Creatures Inc and Game Freak to have The Pokemon Company create a Pokemon game for PlayStation (it's not known how ownership/control is divided), but it couldn't use the name Pokemon, the Pokemon logo, or any of the existing Pokemon characters.

And regardless of who owns Pokemon, Nintendo is the one selling Game Boys and DSes to play it on.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by jeremymcanally on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:04PM (#15901549)
They do own a piece of the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pokémon_Company

It's a complicated arrangement, but they're definitely banking off the success of the franchise directly and indirectly.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Tiktaalik on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @12:17AM (#15903163)
If you look at the Switch and the Wii U, it feels to me that they probably stemmed from the same pitch:

"Wouldn't it be great to have a home console that you can take away to the other room for when someone else wants to use the TV?"

The difference is that the tech with the Wii U wasn't good enough yet to make a really great product. With the Switch it is now cheap enough to make a really high quality product.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Waterluvian on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @12:38AM (#15903243)
WiiU felt like a bundle of compromise and business pressure.

Switch feels like a lesson learned.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by Rapzid on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @12:53AM (#15903283)
I like this insight. It means they doubled down on the idea; and won.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:19PM (#15901082)
A toy is by definition only for children. The Switch is a video game system for all ages, so it’s not a toy … unless you think video games are only for children.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by 32bitkid on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:24PM (#15901135)
I'm not sure I agree with this definition of a "toy"; to me is an item used primarily for "play" (or not exclusively for "work"/"productivity"). Play is most definitely not restricted to children.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:40PM (#15901329)
Either all major video game consoles are toys, or none of them are. And since they are designed for all age groups, I wouldn’t call them toys, because that unnecessarily associates them with children.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by golergka on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @05:21AM (#15904380)
> Either all major video game consoles are toys, or none of them are.

It seems that you're approaching this from a mathematical logic standpoint - if we have a definition of A, then either each X is A or is not A, and since (1) definition of "toy" is based on certain characteristics and the set of "video game consoles" all have the same values for these characteristics, then they either are toys or not.

However, the things we're discussing here are based on subjective feelings and nuance, and are also recursive - in this domain, we assign the statement "X is A" a higher probability just because people in general agree with the statement "X is A" (think Wittgenstein's "meaning is use").

Using mathematical logic in such domains is not very constructive.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by eric_h on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:58PM (#15901499)
Whenever I buy a new piece of electronics (say, a new iPhone or a new laptop), I call it my new toy.

Toys aren't just for kids, just like fun isn't just for kids.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:18PM (#15901666)
Yes, and I call my cat baby. That‘s fine but in discussions, we should stick to the words’ actual meanings. When you say, video game consoles are toys, you‘re (inadvertently) making a statement that video games are for children. That‘s what you sound like, whether you like it or not. It‘s because most people associate toys with children. So let‘s acknowledge that, and use terms that highlight that video games are for all ages, instead of the opposite.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by hug on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:32PM (#15901767)
I am quite nonplussed by your linguistic prescriptivism. It is, however a moot point in a discussion about Nintendo's products. I appreciate your efforts to remain cordial, however.

(In case you didn't get it: All of those words once meant or possibly still currently mean the opposite of the way in which they're being used in this comment. Language is what you make of it.)

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by hug on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:24PM (#15901139)
Think you might want to re-examine your logic there, my friend.

Just because something is for one group, doesn’t mean that it’s illegal for another group to use it.

Yeah, I think the Switch is for children. I think it’s designed to appeal to kids and be sold, primarily, to kids. I also think that a lot of adults appreciate it regardless because a good toy can appeal to more than just the young.

If you think adults can gain no value from a toy, you are definitely not living the happiest life you could live.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:45PM (#15901371)
Based on Nintendo’s marketing, the Switch is targeted at young adults. Why do you think it’s for children? The colorful controllers? The art style of the games?
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by kbutler on Monday December 11, 2017 @09:25PM (#15902583)
I like the distinction that a game has specific goals, but a toy is just to play with. You can make up your own games to play with toys.

So the more sandboxy a game is (Minecraft) the more it is a toy, but the more you are on rails or limited in what you can do (Tetris), the more it is a game.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by fizx on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:25PM (#15901152)
Someone hasn't heard of sex toys.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:36PM (#15901293)
A sex toy is by definition not a type of toy (yes, that’s possible). I’m literally just using the dictionary.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by rainbowmverse on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:47PM (#15901395)
You have the direction backwards. The dictionary imperfectly describes language. It doesn't define it.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:54PM (#15901453)
A dictionary explains a word’s meaning. I‘m going by the dictionary. You’re free to make up your own definitions, but according to the dictionary, a toy is intended for children. Video game consoles are intended for all ages (equally), so they cannot be considered toys.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by rainbowmverse on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:57PM (#15901487)
A dictionary describes some common uses. It is not comprehensive or authoritative. It changes with the language, not the other way around. Language defines the dictionary, sometimes with a very long lag. Several people have told you of a definition not present in whatever dictionary you referred to. This is meaningful.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:12PM (#15901615)
If you were to ask any group of people whether toys are intended for children, the majority would say yes. Do we at least agree on that? If would be more useful for all of us, if we, in discussions, used terms in ways that align with what the majority thinks those terms represent. Because if we don’t, we create confusion. This is unnecessary and just wastes our time.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by rainbowmverse on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:17PM (#15901653)
>> If you were to ask any group of people whether toys are intended for children, the majority would say yes. Do we at least agree on that?

No. This is, in fact, the point of contention here. I've heard ads and people calling boats, cars, tools, new games, and so on toys. A few dictionaries I checked agree. Several people in this very thread have the same opinion.

Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:31PM (#15901755)
Well, fine. But as someone who has a lot of experience with people telling me to stop playing video game because I’m not a child anymore (as have many if not most young adult gamers), it seems to me that people who call video games toys just reinforce that narrative, so it‘d help if they didn‘t.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by dsr_ on Monday December 11, 2017 @05:57PM (#15901479)
Arguments about reality that resort to the dictionary are never satisfying. The dictionary needs to reflect reality, not the other way around.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by pasquinelli on Monday December 11, 2017 @06:26PM (#15901720)
what dictionary did you look sex toy up in? mine doesn't have it, because sex toys do not exist.
Re:Nintendo’s Resurgence by SimeVidas on Monday December 11, 2017 @07:20PM (#15902046)
I usually go “define <word>” on Google and use Wiktionary to get more details, if necessary.