News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
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Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by EZ-E on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:08PM (#15849640)
> Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money?

Following laws is normal, but Tim Cook shouldn't both comply on censorship, and right after promote an "open internet" conference hosted by the government that just told you remove the VPN from your app store.

China doesn't have rule of law, it rules BY law. Laws and their enforcement apply differently if you're local company or foreign company. Also differently whether you're in good terms with the government or not (this is probably why Cook even showed up at this conference to begin with).

If they want to shut you down they can just pile on unreasonable demands until you quit. Try applying for a journalist Visa without connections in mainland China to get a taste if this kind of functioning.

To have a company in China you need local partners, and you will have to give up your IP at some point.

Apple and Microsoft are still welcome because Apple creates tons of jobs and Microsoft runs on all the computers. If they loose that and still step on Chinese companies market, the tone would change quickly

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by njarboe on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:41PM (#15849777)
This requirement for local partners is even present for doing scientific geology studies in the country. Without a local partner you are not going to get permits to look at rocks and take small samples anywhere in the country. Public lands in the US are wide open to walking around, looking at stuff, and taking a few rocks.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by taobility on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:04AM (#15849853)
can you understand different countries have different laws? In China, when you buy alcohol in grocery store, nobody would check your ID. Would I say it is invade my privacy by checking my ID/driver license when I trying to buy alcohol?
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by njarboe on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @01:51AM (#15850238)
Yes, I understand. If you are to do anything in China you will transfer your knowledge to China. The US does not require that. The US should have reciprocal law with respect to China. I actually thought that was the whole point of letting China join the WTO, but I guess I was wrong.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by wybiral on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:08PM (#15849645)
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by longcheng on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:18PM (#15849688)
so, facts are hurting you, right?
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by dang on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @01:16AM (#15850129)
On HN, it's necessary not to use the site primarily for political or national battle, and not ok to have a single-purpose account. You're welcome here as long as you want to use Hacker News as intended, but that means using it for intellectual curiosity, not lashing out at perceived national slights.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Because the community is Western-oriented and most of us are rather ignorant of things Chinese, I'm sure that many things people say on China topics can be hard to take. Nevertheless, we can't have nationalistic flamewars. If you know more, the thing to do is to teach us, in a good spirit. If you can't or don't want to do that, that's fine, but then please refrain from posting. I realize that it's not easy to hold a minority viewpoint under such conditions, but it's not in your interest to break the rules like this; it ends up representing your viewpoint in a bad way, which doesn't help.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by wybiral on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:29PM (#15849727)
Not in the least. I just noticed that you seem to have a bit of an agenda. Nothing wrong with that, but you've presented more rhetoric than fact as far as I can see.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by longcheng on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:42PM (#15849781)
I am mature enough and proud to have a consistent view.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by smsm42 on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:33PM (#15849744)
In Russia, they say professional internet trolls get 11 RUR per comment (about 18c). I am curious how it is in China? Is it more or less?
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by richardknop on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:42PM (#15849783)
You would be surprised how many people are trolls for free. Just brainwashed people parroting Russian talking points planted by Putin's intelligence service. I can see this on discussion forums in Eastern Europe. I don't doubt many of those people genuinely believe those things and are not being paid.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by noarchy on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:50PM (#15849814)
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by dang on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @01:14AM (#15850120)
This breaks the HN guidelines. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them regardless of what you think of someone else's comments.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by baybal2 on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:35AM (#15849970)
5 RUR, but that was over 10 years ago. These days, it must be over 10 times that.
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Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by musage on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @01:22AM (#15850152)
What facts? You boast about might being right like a caveman, and call that progress. You're not even capable of hearing the words of truly progressive people, and what I criticize the US, European countries and others for, I could never admire about China. A few lines from a poem by Erich Friend come to mind:

the imprint of their naked feet / in the desert sand / will outlast the silhouettes / of your bombs and tanks

That goes for everybody, everywhere. Past, present, future. Identifying with a nation, religion or race is not a sign of greatness, it's a sign that a person didn't get to develop. Having reached the local optimum available to you does not equal maturity, having no room left to grow does not mean you're big. Tens of billions multiplied by zero still equals zero.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by ENGNR on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:18PM (#15849687)
Let China make their own iPhones if they want them locked down. Complying with censorship isn't projecting 'soft power', pulling out of China and letting people buy them as grey imports as a fashion statement would be soft power

Complying with the local laws is basically just greed when the laws are so far against your own core values

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by richardknop on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:20PM (#15849697)
I mean Apple is free to leave China. But it seems that they really want to sell iPhones in China and make money there.

The point I am trying to make is that prevalent HN view against censorship is not something Apple leadership cares about enough to leave the market.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by nailer on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:27AM (#15849940)
I think HN understands that Apple don't care, they just don't agree that is ethical.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:11AM (#15849883)
Amazon does well in china. We used it often in china along with JD and, much more rarely, taobao.

Baidu best google because they were allowed to not follow local law, being a chinese company, and got popular on porn as well as rich in healthcare scams.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by cannonedhamster on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:37PM (#15849757)
What's changed about China? Have they stopped propping up their own businesses with false profits? Have they stopped stealing IP from other companies? Of the companies you listed only 2 are able to compete outside of China because they actually make a reputable product.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by taobility on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:06AM (#15849861)
You just knew 2 of them. If you try to get rid of all Made In China products from your home, your place would be empty I believe.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by cannonedhamster on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @07:58AM (#15851424)
It's not just about "Made In China". I'm not being jingoist, I'm saying for China, they have relatively few top tier companies that can compete outside of China. They do very well inside China because they are insulated against competition, but for the vast majority of products that Chinese export they are only a market shift away from being priced out of being profitable as other regional players could easily take up low end manufacturing and automated factories in other parts of the world could, and probably will take up chip manufacturing. China as a long term strategy is a losing game for any country that isn't China first.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by usaphp on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:13PM (#15849665)
> Google was allowed to operate in China, and it decided it did NOT want to follow the law and quit.

Well google did not want to follow local law not because of their moral stand but because their business relies on gathering information about their customers, and thats different from Apple who mostly justs want to sell things to people.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by majormajor on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:42PM (#15849784)
The question becomes: is Apple helping give away the keys to the kingdom with China-based manufacturing and business, in exchange for ultimately fleeting short term profits?

Will they start to get the boot too?

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by cromwellian on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @05:43AM (#15850995)
Nice try to rewrite history, but the Chinese government didn't have a problem with Google doing targeted advertising, they had a problem with Google not wanting censor search results. Sergey Brin, who grew up in the Soviet Union, was adamant about not kowtowing to this. It didn't help that there were state level attempts to hack into humanitarian activist accounts.

Technically, Google didn't "leave" China either, they simply moved Google.cn to Hong Kong. The fact that mainland Chinese can't easily access Google without VPNs (now banned, helped along by Apple) is a political decision and doesn't have anything to do with Google. No one in the world has problems using Google.hk except those in the mainland.

Apple's behavior here is quite unethical no matter how you slice it. They are aiding and abetting a censorship regime that is cracking down even harder recently than it was previously. The centralized app store model makes it even worse, rather than better, as on the PC and Android, you can still side load apps or run linux, in order to avoid government mandated surveillance and censorship (In Xinjiang province, the government recently went as far as to mandate everyone install a backdoor or face jail time and fines)

Just wanting to sell things to people isn't an excuse, if in doing so, you are lending credibility and legitimacy to a unethical behavior. And frankly, the asymmetrical way many Western tech and media companies are blocked in China is frankly an unfair trade practice. Wasn't joining the WTO supposed to come with some kind of tit-for-tat agreements? That in exchange for lowering of tariffs and import regulations, there has to be some reciprocity on the other side?

Apple can still make their phones in China, but if they had a backbone, they'd say, no, "open internet" does not mean "we will help ban all VPNs from our store so Chinese consumers have NO CHOICE." and refuse the order, and let China ban the App Store. They could then allow a side-load model that decentralizes control so that the government can't even force them to censor.

In the US, they've marketed themselves as being anti-surveillance and proudly implemented cryptographic techniques in ways that even they can't break them. Allowing Chinese to sideload apps would allow them to say to the government "we can't stop people from using VPNs, we can't control what they download and install via side loading"

Sadly, that ship may have sailed, but IMHO, standing for your principles is better than selling out for money. They've already got $200 billion in cash in the bank and aren't hurting for revenue.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by jack9 on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:33AM (#15849958)
> It failed to compete against Alibaba and Jindong.

It hasn't been competing. Businesses that use AWS are forced into using competing inferior services. Part of what killed Red5Studios was not having capital to survive that transition.

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by kercker on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @12:51AM (#15850027)
I think that "It failed to compete against Alibaba and Jindong" refers to online shopping, not cloud computing.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by rqs on Monday December 04, 2017 @11:53PM (#15849825)
> Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law

Oh, I like this statement.

Because based on the same statement, if Cook wants to make money in a country where been gay will be punished by death[0][1], he must be smiling like a sunflower when he standing in front of a gay couple who will soon be executed because of, well, local law.

Very delightful, Huh?

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_for_homosexualit...

Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by dang on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @01:21AM (#15850149)
Please refrain from taking HN threads into flamewar hell. Even assuming you're right, doing so destroys the community.
Re:Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censors... by rqs on Tuesday December 05, 2017 @02:31AM (#15850381)
OK, fair.

But since I can't edit that post any more, let me just give you a free hug so we can continue enjoying the rest of the day.