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Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by kbutler on Sunday November 26, 2017 @08:40PM (#15784217)
Nuclear disaster sites become unacceptable to human life, thus becoming havens for wildlife. See also Chernobyl.

So at what point do eco-terrorists seek to cause nuclear incidents with the intent of causing less harm than human development and presence would cause?

(This has probably been explored in a Tom Clancy/Michael Crichton -type novel...)

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by munin on Sunday November 26, 2017 @11:19PM (#15784799)
> (This has probably been explored in a Tom Clancy/Michael Crichton -type novel...)

This is the plot of Rainbow Six, where a scheming group of evil environmentalists plan to unleash a weaponized strain of Ebola on the world to wipe out 99.99% of the global population so that the ecosystems will survive. Other comically evil things the environmentalists do include experimenting on homeless people abducted from the street and provoking/funding acts of terror worldwide as part of some hazy cover up for their activities.

It all ends in tears for the environmentalists though, at the hands of an all-American red-blooded special forces hero and his multi-national above-the-law and above-Top-Secret counter-terrorism task force.

Not really Clancy's finest hour, IMO, but a good look into the conservative id.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by dajohnson89 on Sunday November 26, 2017 @11:35PM (#15784857)
and it was a damn good first person shooter.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by sliverstorm on Monday November 27, 2017 @12:48AM (#15785144)
What a world we live in, where environmentalists are the scariest ghost around for the all-American red-blooded special forces hero to go chasing.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Lazare on Monday November 27, 2017 @01:29AM (#15785304)
> What a world we live in

Well that's the thing: The book comes from a different world. More precisely, it came from 1998, when the Soviet Union (Tom Clancy's traditional antagonist of choice) was long gone, but Islamic terror wasn't yet the obvious replacement. He wrote a string of books with odd antagonists (eg, Japanese nationalists) during the period.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Wohlf on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:15AM (#15787452)
There were even some acts of environmental terrorism at the time, so it was probably an idea ripped from the headlines.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by pjc50 on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:23AM (#15787072)
Of course, in reality we had French special forces committing acts of terrorism against environmentalists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by lightbyte on Monday November 27, 2017 @02:05PM (#15790134)
>The sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, codenamed Opération Satanic

Who names their covert terrorism op that? That's just asking for it.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by eadmund on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:53PM (#15793296)
On the other side of the aisle, Justice League opens with its evil terrorists being … suit-wearing English reactionaries.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by kiddico on Monday November 27, 2017 @10:47AM (#15788173)
That was a wonderful overview. Oddly enough I've never wanted to read something more than right now. That sounds absurd in just the right kind of way.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Fej on Sunday November 26, 2017 @09:01PM (#15784298)
Nuclear terrorism is really, really hard, which is why it has been confined (so far!) to fiction.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by spodek on Sunday November 26, 2017 @10:12PM (#15784545)
Wikipedia's definition arguably includes the non-fictional Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror, or fear, to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim. It is used in this regard primarily to refer to violence against peacetime targets or in war against non-combatants.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Spooky23 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:54PM (#15804157)
I think in the context of world war 2, the nuclear bombs were just a more powerful instrument of destruction. If anything, they saved humanity from more devastating total war with conventional arms, which would have killed millions more.

With the advent of the B29, the US was dropping napalm and phosphorus on Japanese cities to create massive firestorms. The glow of Tokyo burning was visible for hundreds of miles. On the scale of horror or inhumanity, I’m not sure how to compare different types of aerial bombardment targeted civilians as instruments of war production that needed to be eliminated.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by ghostcluster on Sunday November 26, 2017 @11:02PM (#15784724)
Except they occured during an active war and achieved a military goal: to prevent a mainland assault which would have killed an order of magnitude more people.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by mb_72 on Monday November 27, 2017 @03:03AM (#15785609)
I can't find the link right now, but have read a fairly convincing argument that it was the conventional type of bombing, not nuclear, that caused the Japanese to surrender. Still a terrible thing for Japanese civilians though.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by FabHK on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:00AM (#15786159)
I think it would be wrong to characterise that as the consensus, though. My understanding is that historians haven't come to a conclusive assessment, but that the majority view is that it did cut the war short and save lives (net).
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by manangatangy on Monday November 27, 2017 @06:19AM (#15786524)
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by mb_72 on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:17PM (#15793703)
Yes, thank you!
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by ghostcluster on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:48AM (#15787241)
The conventional bombing killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by vkou on Monday November 27, 2017 @03:25AM (#15785688)
The Soviet invasion of Manchuria was another straw.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by throw2016 on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:08AM (#15787394)
Dropping a nuclear bomb on a civilian population is an act of barbarism. Dropping 2 is an act of insanity and is going down in history as one of the most reckless odious crimes against humanity.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Wohlf on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:16AM (#15787468)
Conventional and fire bombing were just as bad, they only took longer.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by sklinger on Sunday November 26, 2017 @11:07PM (#15784749)
Except that Japan and the US were at war at the time (therefore not peacetime targets). Maybe you're thinking of the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor?
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by scott_karana on Monday November 27, 2017 @12:49AM (#15785148)
Did you miss "in war against non-combatants"? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were exactly that. Even Tokyo was considered.

PS, Pearl Harbour was against military targets, and peacetime is arguable considering the embargoes, etc. Still not "high ground" by any means, but hardly unprecedented. The US already had a fleet there precisely in case it was needed against the Japanese empire.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by kazagistar on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:35AM (#15786022)
There was no point in nuking Tokyo and such because it had already been almost entirely burned to the ground by firestorms from previous firebombings.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Spooky23 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @10:03PM (#15804199)
From the US Civil War to the atomic age, there was no such thing as a non-combatant. Industrialization meant that a modern society could indefinitely sustain mobilization and fight until economic collapse.

World War 1 was where his really came to roost. The machine gun and artillery turned the western front into an industrial scale killing machine that only ended when the German economy ground to a halt. Technology improvements in WW2 enabled destruction at a scale never witnessed in history and incomparable on a relative scale to nothing except Caesar’s Gallic campaign.

The way to win was about metrics — building more arms and killing as many people as possible. Japan was no different than cavalrymen in WW1, who believed that elan and decisive victory in the field would carry the day. Sociopaths like Curtis Lemay figured that out.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by ghostcluster on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:50AM (#15786098)
Japan hadn't declared war.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by timthelion on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:03AM (#15786948)
US never declared war in Vietnam.

And since when did saying "I hate you, I'm going to war with you" make it OK to indiscriminately kill civilians.

ISIS has declared war on England. Does that make it OK for them to bomb the subway?

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by ghostcluster on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:59AM (#15787328)
What are you trying to argue? That Pearl Harbor wasn't a surprise attack?

That the Japanese didn't employ terrorist tactics against American civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon

> And since when did saying "I hate you, I'm going to war with you" make it OK to indiscriminately kill civilians

Maybe ask the Japanese? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

If you can't understand a strategic decision to bring a war to an end and avoid a larger loss of life, I don't know what to tell you.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by boomboomsubban on Monday November 27, 2017 @10:08AM (#15787835)
The Japanese were in Nanking as part of a strategic decision to bring the war to a quick end, does that justify that massacre of civilians?
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by timthelion on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:44AM (#15787669)
My point is, that this "everything's fair in love and war" attitude is without moral basis. It's not magically OK to be evil just because you are at war, and using wartime tactics when you are not officially at war is not worse than doing them during a war.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by Jakawao on Monday November 27, 2017 @01:48AM (#15785358)
Also, keep in mind that Hawaii was not even a US State at this point. It was an independent island nation that happened to have a US military base.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by DrScump on Monday November 27, 2017 @01:53AM (#15785367)
No, it was a U.S. possession, not unlike Alaska (bound for statehood) or the Philippines (preparing for independence).
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by barry-cotter on Sunday November 26, 2017 @11:56PM (#15784951)
It’s not terrorism if a government does it openly. It was a breach of international law but to call an attack by one nation’s military on another’s terrorism is well outside any non propagandistic usage.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by gonvaled on Monday November 27, 2017 @02:33AM (#15785507)
So you are saying that governments can not be terrorists (as long as they are open about it)?

Funny definition is that.

So, how do you call acts of agression performed by governments against non combatants?

Since the only reason not to call them terrorism is to paint (your?) government actions with a nicer brush, I assume you call those acts "liberation events"

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by zdkl on Monday November 27, 2017 @02:44AM (#15785542)
> So, how do you call acts of agression performed by governments against non combatants?

War crimes.

The reason not to call it terrorism is because that is not what the word means. If a sovereign nation formally declares war to another, any action covered by international convention is classified seperately from "civil" or militant violence.

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by gonvaled on Monday November 27, 2017 @03:10AM (#15785633)
Fair enough!
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by barry-cotter on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:25AM (#15785969)
If you want to learn more about international humanitarian law there’s an excellent MOOC from UC Louvain on EdX.

https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:LouvainX+Louv16x+1...

Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by timthelion on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:03AM (#15786952)
Is there any non propogandistic use of the word "terrorism"?
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by rhcom2 on Monday November 27, 2017 @12:31AM (#15785079)
It was certainly "war against non-combatants" though. Two cities filled with civilians.
Re:What Bikini Atoll Looks Like Today by spuz on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:16AM (#15786235)
Actually maybe not as hard as you think:

https://youtu.be/9Rni8okfgn4#t=1h34m