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Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by ganeshkrishnan on Sunday November 26, 2017 @03:40PM (#15782853)
Bitcoins aren't backed by anything or to anything. Whether it's worth 1 dollar or a million dollar makes no difference, it's our perception that gives it value. Plus they are limited unlike Fiat currency
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by zeep on Sunday November 26, 2017 @07:44PM (#15783996)
limited, until the bitcoin-core team changes the limit and the change gets approved by a majority of users/miners...
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by priitmaxx on Sunday November 26, 2017 @08:31PM (#15784173)
Yup people forget this point. If I were to bet, early enters will get out, leaving everyone high and dry.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by arianon on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:01PM (#15782962)
While it is up for debate if certain abstract characteristics of BTC give it value (such as its scarcity, its usefulness and what not) you can certainly say that BTC is backed by the power required to mine it.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by cjensen on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:11PM (#15783008)
That's incorrect. The price of creating a thing does not determine its value. If there is no demand, then it is worth nothing no matter how hard it is to create.

To be crude, human poop takes effort to create, but the worth of it as a tradable good is significantly less than the effort involved.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by wz1000 on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:19PM (#15783388)
The cost of mining bitcoin is dependent on the value, not the other way around. This is because the rate of creation of bitcoin is essentially fixed. If the price rises, mining becomes more profitable, so more resources go into mining, but the difficulty also increases. So the same amount of bitcoins will be created, but the energy cost of mining a bitcoin will increase proportionally with the price.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by vinchuco on Sunday November 26, 2017 @06:26PM (#15783687)
soon everyone starts taking loans to buy bitcoin
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by dajohnson89 on Sunday November 26, 2017 @06:44PM (#15783755)
I know many people personally who have done this
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by Casseres on Monday November 27, 2017 @03:29AM (#15785705)
How long ago, or how recently, did they take out the loans?
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by dajohnson89 on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:57PM (#15792458)
about a year or two ago. in one extreme case, somebody maxed out their CCs and used their student loans to invest in eth. He was a bit on the obsessed side.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by Dramatize on Sunday November 26, 2017 @03:46PM (#15782886)
It's backed by work/effort.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by FooHentai on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:38PM (#15783493)
Work/effort which delivered no value, other than in the circular sense.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jeremyt on Sunday November 26, 2017 @03:44PM (#15782873)
The backing of fiat is illusory.

I always posit this question, to which I have never received a satisfactory answer: What, exactly, would the US do if the world suddenly decided that the dollar was worth nothing?

Massive buybacks of dollars by the Fed would be seen as an ineffective and desperate move. Besides that, what other recourse do they have?

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by mindvirus on Sunday November 26, 2017 @03:54PM (#15782933)
The US dollar is backed by its military and government. In practice, while the US can reduce supply by buying dollars like you said, it can also increase demand by incentivizing buying US currency (say by raising interest rates, or requiring certain transactions to be done in dollars).

Economically the US is very well positioned - it has friendly neighbors, a robust legal system, a diversified industry and a lot of natural resources, so it would take quite a bit for hyperinflation to occur. Obviously anything is possible, though.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jeremyt on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:26PM (#15783083)
The backing of the military is useless. You gonna force people to buy dollars at gunpoint? The backing of the government is unclear.

We've seen 20% inflation before, and I see no reason we can't see it again.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by TheCoelacanth on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:43PM (#15783517)
> You gonna force people to buy dollars at gunpoint?

It's only a slight exaggeration to describe taxes like that. There are huge amounts of assets held under the jurisdiction of the US government (probably somewhere north of $100 trillion[1]) and a huge number of people who live under the jurisdiction of the US government (>300 million). If the owners of those assets or the people living in the US don't pay their tax bills, the government can resort to seizing their property to cover the tax bill or jailing the person who didn't pay. If they don't cooperate with that action, the government can send people with guns to force them to comply. Effectively, everyone who lives in or owns property in the US is forced to acquire dollars to pay their tax bill.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_Unit...

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by aphextron on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:43PM (#15783177)
>You gonna force people to buy dollars at gunpoint?

Yes. This is the basis of 20th century American prosperity.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by mindvirus on Sunday November 26, 2017 @09:33PM (#15784414)
One example of this is the US collecting taxes in US dollars. Why not let me pay my taxes in Euros or gold (or bitcoin :D)? And there's the threat of violence backing this. If I refuse to pay my taxes in US dollars, I'll get some angry letters, I'll have my property seized, and then I'll get some police officers showing up at my door - and if I continue to resist, I'll either be arrested or killed. For refusing to pay my taxes in US dollars.

Likewise, US dollars are "legal tender for all debts public and private". If someone (in the US) refuses to accept US dollars to consolidate a US debt, they will be arrested or killed (after several opportunities to course correct) and their property will be forcefully taken.

And for a third example - consider someone trying to set up an unregistered company in the USA. If they get on the government's radar, what do you think their long term prospects are?

Fortunately, our legal system and general social beliefs mean that it rarely if ever would come that far. But the threat of violence is real. And think - without that threat, however far removed, why would anyone pay their taxes or follow most laws?

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by lucio on Sunday November 26, 2017 @06:01PM (#15783598)
Also Saddam Hussein decision to sell oil only for euros. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeur...
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by priitmaxx on Sunday November 26, 2017 @08:32PM (#15784177)
Yup very few people know this
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by ganeshkrishnan on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:56PM (#15783253)
Have you read more into the Iran deals and how they threatened to ditch USD? And South American countries?

Look up Chiquita bananas on Wikipedia

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jfoutz on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:05PM (#15783306)
If you mean the people of the US still value the dollar, i don't think it would be a huge hit.

People will scoop up all the free dollars, and bring them back to the us where they have value.

Contracts still have to be paid in dollars. Some people around the world would be upset that their dollars are worthless, but it turns out they could sell those dollars to people who need to pay debts in dollars. So suddenly this valueless piece of paper has value again, because you can trade it for things you want.

if you can in an instant impose some irrational condition for an instant, i think the global economy will, certainly shift, but people would notice all of the arbitrage opportunities and things would _generally_ go back to the way they were, like a flash crash.

if you could wave a magic wand, and make people think the dollar is worthless for 10 years? That would be weird. i imagine we'd make a new currency, dollar2 and just pay everyone in that. you could bring in old dollars to the us and exchange them for dollar2's. But because people are under a spell, they can't think of the arbitrage idea. so it only happens accidentally.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by blusterXY on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:24PM (#15783071)
They would do the opposite of quantitative easing: jack up the Federal Funds rate and reverse open market operations to pull liquidity away from banks. Higher interest rates would encourage people not to dump USD, while also counterbalancing the cheap-money boom created by the influx of USD.

If the influx of USD was higher and faster than could be addressed, the economy would naturally get inflation that would force interest rates even higher up (since no banks will lend at a loss, so borrowing costs get pushed up first by the fed, and then by the need to cover for expected inflation). This would be a death blow to many indebted and highly-leveraged businesses that are dependent on low interest rates for operational purposes (including those in the financial sector) and so they would go out of business. The need for the financial system to write-off the debt held by these companies would also eliminate a certain amount of money in circulation. Eventually enough money has been destroyed/absorbed and the economy is back in equilibrium.

On a less than academic note: this is not a totally unlikely scenario since the flight-to-crypto is a de facto process of de-dollarization, with crypto assets essentially replacing fiat both as store of value as well as medium of exchange. Put another way, the increase in the value of cryptocurrencies is really just a loss in the purchasing power of everyone holding fiat, and since these additional assets are now competing to purchase the same pool of goods, what people think of as bubbles in assets like housing are really just reflective of inflation in the underlying supply of money-that-can-buy-things. And it will get worse when you can sell your house for crypto.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by yuliyp on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:23PM (#15783410)
Let's imagine the entire rest of the world thought that the dollar was worth nothing. Well everyone in the US still needs dollars to pay their taxes, so they'll still want to get their salaries in dollars. Similarly, people will sell stuff in dollars too. Now if someone outside the US wants something that someone in the US produces, they'll be able to get it really cheaply by trading their valuable currency for tons of dollars. They'll do that, buy stuff from the US, and make a huge amount of money. This obviously presents an upward pressure on the dollar's value, until the cost of things from the US more or less balances out.

As long as there's a base of goods/services that can be bought and are priced in dollars, dollars will continue to have value.

Why would the fed need to buy back dollars?

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jeremyt on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:22PM (#15793735)
Needing to pay taxes in dollars has nothing to do with what you get paid in. I know plenty of people who get paid in Bitcoin and pay taxes in dollars.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by crdoconnor on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:21PM (#15783056)
The backing of the USD is the most powerful military the world has ever seen and the richest economy the world has ever seen.

Why would the world suddenly not want in on that?

When Zimbabwe destroyed its currency the real killer wasn't leaving the printing presses on (it was too late by that point) it was the systematic destruction of its agricultural industry.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by ganeshkrishnan on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:58PM (#15783261)
Zibabwe was destroyed by arming the militias during the Rhodesia conflict. Mugabe inherited the debt and the mess and it worsened after that
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by paulcole on Sunday November 26, 2017 @03:47PM (#15782900)
>What, exactly, would the US do if the world suddenly decided that the dollar was worth nothing?

Why would the rest of the world decide this? It’d hurt them more than it’d hurt the US or else they’d have done it already.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by lifty on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:18PM (#15783378)
One reason might be because this gives the US too much influence over the world (I know I am oversimplifying here). As long as everybody got along well, and most of the countries in the world were growing economically, the dollar served a common goal. But now we are increasingly heading towards a world where trade wars are common and policy makers are looking inwards rather than outwards. Perhaps all the armed conflicts that US has gotten into also lead to more ideological misalignment in the world.

So, in such a world, I wouldn’t find it so surprising that certain countries would like to wean themselves of the dollar. Of course, this it is more important for powerful geo-political actors like China and Russia, than Somalia (uses USD extensively), and as an example you can look at how China is planning on offering a yuan priced oil contract that is backed by gold.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jeremyt on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:25PM (#15783078)
This is not logical. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't happen.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by baddox on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:19PM (#15783385)
But it’s a pretty far-fetched hypothetical scenario. You could also ask, what would happen if all of a sudden everyone in the world decided that food had no value? Gee whiz, all the farmers and restaurant owners would be screwed!
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by selectodude on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:02PM (#15783289)
I think it's about as likely as somebody dropping something and it falling up. Keep testing the existence of gravity, it could change on you.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jeremyt on Monday November 27, 2017 @09:25PM (#15793753)
I'm not sure that you realize that the current monetary system is only about half a century old. Fiat currency, backed by nothing except the government, has only existed since the 1970s.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by jstanley on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:00PM (#15783275)
That's the same reason the world won't suddenly decide that BTCs are worthless.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by amarkov on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:16PM (#15783369)
But most of the world doesn't trade in BTC, so most of the world could easily decide Bitcoin is worthless without a hit to their own pocketbooks.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by xapata on Sunday November 26, 2017 @10:22PM (#15784578)
> illusory ... if the world suddenly decided ...

You might as well ask what would happen if the world suddenly disbelieved in anything else that's just a social construct -- property, authority, family, etc. It's a fun and perhaps enlightening thought experiment, but not much practical use.

Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by aero142 on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:22PM (#15783406)
The hard basis of USD is printed on the bills. “Good for all depts public and private”. This means that any bills owed to USG is payable in dollars as well as any payment of debt ordered by a court. I agree that the worldwide value is largely theoretical but the non theoretical value is large in a several trillion dollar economy. If the dollar goes down, it is guaranteed to be useful to buy us companies and land. That has a strong lower bound.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by coinme on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:09PM (#15783325)
That’s what the fed does. It prints more dollars when things are getting worse, and bring them back in when inflationary pressures begin.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by kharms on Sunday November 26, 2017 @04:32PM (#15783120)
Iraq was invaded shortly after Saddam attempted to switch from USD to Euro for their oil exports. I’ve heard various theories for the ultimate reason for the war and of them this one seems pretty convincing.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by alexbeloi on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:01PM (#15783281)
They would peg it to something that everyone did believe was worth something.
Re:Bitcoin Blows Past $9,000 by dsego on Sunday November 26, 2017 @06:21PM (#15783666)
Like Lyban gold dinar?