News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by gamegoblin on Friday November 24, 2017 @12:52PM (#15772031)
Questions to someone with more economics knowledge than me:

I understand the sentiment and intuitive reasoning behind this argument (I find myself thinking it every week when I go to the local farmers' market!), but is there evidence that "buying local" actually increases the local standard of living?

And a followup: if it does increase the local standard of living, would this behavior, if duplicated in all communities in the world, increase the average standard of living in the world?

Some conflicting (and probably all wrong) intuitions I have for different sides of these questions:

Pro local:

The notion of keeping money circulating locally makes sense. If money is a sort of proxy for productivity, then money leaving the community is productivity leaving the community.

Anti local:

If I pay more for Local Larry's eggs and Down-the-road Dave's cabbage (etc.), then to maintain my standard of living at a constant level, I have to charge more for whatever service I provide the community. And recursively, everyone else has to as well. It seems like, at best, we just wind up at the same standard of living we started at (and at worst, lower).

Pro local:

If money is a proxy for productivity, and buying non-local means trading productivity to some large corporation in exchange for some good or service, and that corporation will disproportionately funnel that money to the already-wealthy who can afford to save that money (productivity) for a rainy day, then we have effectively contributed to removing productivity from the economy.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @01:13PM (#15772168)
It only intuitively makes sense -- there are quite a few assumptions. The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient (if it wasn't, it would just compete with the non-local product at regular market conditions). Being less efficient means using more inputs per output, so what is the local farmers inputs, and -- crucially -- where are those inputs made? Is he using his not-locally-made tractor less efficiently? Is he paying a mortgage to a non-local financial institution? Is he sourcing his feed, seeds, fertilizer, fuel etc locally? And of his profit, how much of it is he spending locally?

These are difficult numbers to work out exactly, but it's not difficult to see that they have to be in a pretty thigh range for your local-premium to actually, on the net, drain resources from the community, compared to you just eating cheaper meals a bit more frequently. The main type of input that most obviously support the local community is labor, and most modern products, particularly agriculturally, are rather light on labor, so you might end up supporting one job at the farm in favor of three jobs at the diner. Especially if the farm-job is held by a "highly educated, ex-urban, first-time farmer" and the diner-jobs by single moms, it's getting morally quite dubious.

But to wrap this up, local to non-local is rarely apples to apples. Just as with organic, there's probably a very substantial overlap with meeting a demand for products that are simply better (and thus more expensive), with the nominal quality (local, organic) actually being secondary.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by jcbrand on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:04PM (#15772443)
> The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient

I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think you're leaving out some details.

We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection.

So the notion that it's simply about efficiency is in my opinion a bit reductionistic. As an example, to make my point... I would use a different word than "efficiency" to describe someone who uses slave-labor to push costs down.

So when buying local, at least you know which standards the producers are held to. It's the same with Bio/Organic/Free-trade products.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Dylan16807 on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:27PM (#15772561)
> We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection.

That can be a factor, but simply making things in bulk is a huge efficiency gain even with the exact same worker/environment protection.

And on top of that you have transportation efficiency to take into account. A remote farm can send full trailers of product to a distribution center, which then sends full trailers carrying multiple products to stores. A local farm can't send a full trailer of apples to a local store, it has to do much less efficient things.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by tbihl on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:19PM (#15783390)
It's not always advantageous to be efficient, and this is even more true in really important areas like food supply, because having the extra, underutilized capacity can save you in a pinch. When it comes to frivolous things like computers and phones and cars, it's much easier to favor efficiency,because the breakdowns can be really problematic, but still less immediately endangering.

Evolution is perhaps the best example of how being inefficient can be hugely beneficial in the long term.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Dylan16807 on Sunday November 26, 2017 @06:22PM (#15783674)
Only specific types of inefficiency represent underutilized capacity. And I don't see how local food shipping qualifies. If anything the distribution-center model makes it easier to reallocate resources toward food supply, because they already have lots of trucks available that typically don't carry food.

By comparison, "just-in-time" shipping is an example where the efficiency removes those margins. But that's orthogonal to how far the food ships. You can have similar-sized buffers either way.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by tbihl on Monday November 27, 2017 @02:41AM (#15785534)
I'm going to just try a couple analogies because I suspect my argument won't come through if I try to explain or use examples. It seems like one interpretation of complex distribution networks is that they form a strong web that can flex and even have fibers break while still maintaining the cohesion and function of the whole. On the other hand, if that web actually turns out to have long dependencies, it could rapidly deteriorate, which is what concerns me.

I suppose that it's true about the large numbers of trucks, but wouldn't those only be reallocated to the detriment of providing other goods? And what happens to all our excess flexibility if severe oil shortages come to pass? Looking closer to the origin,the centralized model leaves us more susceptible to local droughts and floods (because everyone's produce comes from Salinas and watsonville), infectious diseases in livestock herds, and fungus that can cripple the entire crop of a particular fruit (because we've reduced the number of varieties by nine tenths or ninety nine hundredths.)

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Dylan16807 on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:55AM (#15786128)
> On the other hand, if that web actually turns out to have long dependencies, it could rapidly deteriorate, which is what concerns me.

I agree, but certain types of dependencies are much riskier than others.

> I suppose that it's true about the large numbers of trucks, but wouldn't those only be reallocated to the detriment of providing other goods?

Yes, but what's the detriment of emergency-increasing local shipping? Probably at least as bad.

> And what happens to all our excess flexibility if severe oil shortages come to pass?

Local shipping takes more oil in many cases.

> Looking closer to the origin,the centralized model leaves us more susceptible to local droughts and floods (because everyone's produce comes from Salinas and watsonville), infectious diseases in livestock herds

Instead of a major shortage leading to deaths in one area, while everyone else is fine, it turns into a slight supply reduction over the entire country.

> fungus that can cripple the entire crop of a particular fruit (because we've reduced the number of varieties by nine tenths or ninety nine hundredths.)

That is definitely a major problem, but is also unrelated to how far you ship. Megafarms could plant 50 kinds of tomato efficiently, if they wanted to.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by NikolaeVarius on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:25PM (#15772550)
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:20PM (#15772526)
For the purposes of this discussion, tax is a cost like any other, and subject to the same considerations: Where and on what is that money then spent? If it's spent on a Halliburton-produced armoured vehicle for the local police departments war on drugs, you and the community are probably better off buying non-local from a low-tax locality.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Nomentatus on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:50PM (#15772665)
The biggest efficiency is nutritional, and taste - varieties that travel very, very well trade off a lot of nutrition for that trait.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by scott_s on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:12PM (#15772758)
From the studies I have heard about, there is no measurable nutritional difference between organic and non-organic food. See https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-org...

I am unaware of such studies for small farms versus large farms.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by sliverstorm on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:48PM (#15772938)
Your parent is not talking about organic methods, but rather different varieties of crops. E.g., big red beefsteak tomatoes are popular and travel well while little heirloom varieties do not, so you are going to have access to additional, possibly more nutrative, varieties if you buy local.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Nomentatus on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:01AM (#15774523)
This has nothing to do with "organic" anything - the conditions of breeding - but modern breeds of vegetables and fruit. There's no shortage of evidence of the difference, and the decline in vitamin content over the last many decades, in the U.S.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:08PM (#15772746)
If you're buying a better product for a price you're considering fair, you're not meaningfully "buying local" - the product you prefer just happens to be locally produced (and possibly can only be locally produced).

The kind of buying local that you need campaigns to encourage people to do, is generally either more expensive or poorer quality than the non-local alternative.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Nomentatus on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:03AM (#15774530)
Better is the whole point of buying local - the can't buy traditional varieties remotely because they don't ship well. Of course you COULD buy shabby shipping varieties locally, but that was never what Alice was about, and it would be a silly thing to do.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by icc97 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:02AM (#15869337)
There's quite a lot of economics behind this for local currencies e.g. The Brixton Pound [0]. The number of times that currency gets re-used (keeps flowing in the system) is very important, that is the person you pay, uses that to pay for something else locally rather than just sticking it in their bank or sending it overseas.

Susan Steed, one of the co-founders of the Brixton Pound explains a bit more in this TEDx video [1]

[0]: http://brixtonpound.org/

[1]: https://youtu.be/l_F0xBABI7c?t=7m6s

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by kuschku on Friday November 24, 2017 @01:09PM (#15772153)
A good argument is the question what happens with the money.

For example, assume Facebook replaces a local competitor. Now instead of the profit going to owners, which spend it locally, on philanthropic projects, or just high quality goods, instead it goes to Mark Zuckerberg, who spends it in the US, on US brands, and to fund US charities, in best case.

If you currently live outside the US, outside SV and NYC, you’d very likely gain an advantage if everyone would buy local. The skyscrapers of NYC, and the philanthropic projects in these regions of the US, are funded with money that was extracted all over the globe, but will probably never leave the US again.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @01:16PM (#15772184)
You need to see a layer deeper than that. The opportunity cost of the tens of thousands of highly qualifies engineers required to build and run dozens of national/regional Facebooks rather than doing something else is absolutely huge.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by icebraining on Friday November 24, 2017 @01:36PM (#15772288)
Free software can help with that. In my past two jobs, I've worked with a business platform which we adapt for our clients by developing custom modules, and there's a decent community of small companies from over the world which sell mostly to their internal markets but share modules under Free licenses.

Of course, nobody is getting rich from this, but there are many of us making a very decent living.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @01:51PM (#15772366)
It's not about that. It's about choosing not to use an existing, appropriate solution because it is not being developed and run locally. There can be valid regulatory or security reasons to choose that, I'm only considering the "keeping money local" argument.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by icebraining on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:29PM (#15772566)
My point is that you can keep money local without having to develop everything locally.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by whytaka on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:23PM (#15772542)
Gains from trade is maximized when traders specialize in their most productive work. When profit is reinvested, it raises the standard of living. - Econ 101

If for any reason, you truly value your neighbourhood chicken farmer Bob's livelihood though, there's no better means of buying Bob's well-being than giving money straight to Bob.

You would have to reimagine the idea of "a high standard of living" to include the comfort of knowing that Bob's well-being is sustained.

Of course it would be at the cost of excluding the welfare of people outside of your monkeysphere.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by tspike on Friday November 24, 2017 @09:11PM (#15774064)
Negative externalities are rarely fully accounted for with this model. If you ignore the non monetary impacts, specialization wins every time.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by koverstreet on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:29PM (#15772570)
You might be taking spherical cows too far.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by whytaka on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:37PM (#15772611)
I don't know what you mean.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by jacobush on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:03PM (#15772723)
You are over-simplifying, he says.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by sliverstorm on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:53PM (#15772674)
Pro-local: attempts to directly avoid problems of trade imbalance and wealth sequestration in imperfect markets

Anti-local: a perfectly functioning market doesn't have those problems

It's basically protectionism with all the same arguments for and against. Less economically optimal, but protects you from market malfunction and bad actors.