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Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @01:13PM (#15772168)
It only intuitively makes sense -- there are quite a few assumptions. The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient (if it wasn't, it would just compete with the non-local product at regular market conditions). Being less efficient means using more inputs per output, so what is the local farmers inputs, and -- crucially -- where are those inputs made? Is he using his not-locally-made tractor less efficiently? Is he paying a mortgage to a non-local financial institution? Is he sourcing his feed, seeds, fertilizer, fuel etc locally? And of his profit, how much of it is he spending locally?

These are difficult numbers to work out exactly, but it's not difficult to see that they have to be in a pretty thigh range for your local-premium to actually, on the net, drain resources from the community, compared to you just eating cheaper meals a bit more frequently. The main type of input that most obviously support the local community is labor, and most modern products, particularly agriculturally, are rather light on labor, so you might end up supporting one job at the farm in favor of three jobs at the diner. Especially if the farm-job is held by a "highly educated, ex-urban, first-time farmer" and the diner-jobs by single moms, it's getting morally quite dubious.

But to wrap this up, local to non-local is rarely apples to apples. Just as with organic, there's probably a very substantial overlap with meeting a demand for products that are simply better (and thus more expensive), with the nominal quality (local, organic) actually being secondary.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by jcbrand on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:04PM (#15772443)
> The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient

I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think you're leaving out some details.

We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection.

So the notion that it's simply about efficiency is in my opinion a bit reductionistic. As an example, to make my point... I would use a different word than "efficiency" to describe someone who uses slave-labor to push costs down.

So when buying local, at least you know which standards the producers are held to. It's the same with Bio/Organic/Free-trade products.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Dylan16807 on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:27PM (#15772561)
> We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection.

That can be a factor, but simply making things in bulk is a huge efficiency gain even with the exact same worker/environment protection.

And on top of that you have transportation efficiency to take into account. A remote farm can send full trailers of product to a distribution center, which then sends full trailers carrying multiple products to stores. A local farm can't send a full trailer of apples to a local store, it has to do much less efficient things.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by tbihl on Sunday November 26, 2017 @05:19PM (#15783390)
It's not always advantageous to be efficient, and this is even more true in really important areas like food supply, because having the extra, underutilized capacity can save you in a pinch. When it comes to frivolous things like computers and phones and cars, it's much easier to favor efficiency,because the breakdowns can be really problematic, but still less immediately endangering.

Evolution is perhaps the best example of how being inefficient can be hugely beneficial in the long term.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Dylan16807 on Sunday November 26, 2017 @06:22PM (#15783674)
Only specific types of inefficiency represent underutilized capacity. And I don't see how local food shipping qualifies. If anything the distribution-center model makes it easier to reallocate resources toward food supply, because they already have lots of trucks available that typically don't carry food.

By comparison, "just-in-time" shipping is an example where the efficiency removes those margins. But that's orthogonal to how far the food ships. You can have similar-sized buffers either way.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by tbihl on Monday November 27, 2017 @02:41AM (#15785534)
I'm going to just try a couple analogies because I suspect my argument won't come through if I try to explain or use examples. It seems like one interpretation of complex distribution networks is that they form a strong web that can flex and even have fibers break while still maintaining the cohesion and function of the whole. On the other hand, if that web actually turns out to have long dependencies, it could rapidly deteriorate, which is what concerns me.

I suppose that it's true about the large numbers of trucks, but wouldn't those only be reallocated to the detriment of providing other goods? And what happens to all our excess flexibility if severe oil shortages come to pass? Looking closer to the origin,the centralized model leaves us more susceptible to local droughts and floods (because everyone's produce comes from Salinas and watsonville), infectious diseases in livestock herds, and fungus that can cripple the entire crop of a particular fruit (because we've reduced the number of varieties by nine tenths or ninety nine hundredths.)

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Dylan16807 on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:55AM (#15786128)
> On the other hand, if that web actually turns out to have long dependencies, it could rapidly deteriorate, which is what concerns me.

I agree, but certain types of dependencies are much riskier than others.

> I suppose that it's true about the large numbers of trucks, but wouldn't those only be reallocated to the detriment of providing other goods?

Yes, but what's the detriment of emergency-increasing local shipping? Probably at least as bad.

> And what happens to all our excess flexibility if severe oil shortages come to pass?

Local shipping takes more oil in many cases.

> Looking closer to the origin,the centralized model leaves us more susceptible to local droughts and floods (because everyone's produce comes from Salinas and watsonville), infectious diseases in livestock herds

Instead of a major shortage leading to deaths in one area, while everyone else is fine, it turns into a slight supply reduction over the entire country.

> fungus that can cripple the entire crop of a particular fruit (because we've reduced the number of varieties by nine tenths or ninety nine hundredths.)

That is definitely a major problem, but is also unrelated to how far you ship. Megafarms could plant 50 kinds of tomato efficiently, if they wanted to.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by NikolaeVarius on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:25PM (#15772550)
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:20PM (#15772526)
For the purposes of this discussion, tax is a cost like any other, and subject to the same considerations: Where and on what is that money then spent? If it's spent on a Halliburton-produced armoured vehicle for the local police departments war on drugs, you and the community are probably better off buying non-local from a low-tax locality.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Nomentatus on Friday November 24, 2017 @02:50PM (#15772665)
The biggest efficiency is nutritional, and taste - varieties that travel very, very well trade off a lot of nutrition for that trait.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by scott_s on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:12PM (#15772758)
From the studies I have heard about, there is no measurable nutritional difference between organic and non-organic food. See https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-org...

I am unaware of such studies for small farms versus large farms.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by sliverstorm on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:48PM (#15772938)
Your parent is not talking about organic methods, but rather different varieties of crops. E.g., big red beefsteak tomatoes are popular and travel well while little heirloom varieties do not, so you are going to have access to additional, possibly more nutrative, varieties if you buy local.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Nomentatus on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:01AM (#15774523)
This has nothing to do with "organic" anything - the conditions of breeding - but modern breeds of vegetables and fruit. There's no shortage of evidence of the difference, and the decline in vitamin content over the last many decades, in the U.S.
Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by mseebach on Friday November 24, 2017 @03:08PM (#15772746)
If you're buying a better product for a price you're considering fair, you're not meaningfully "buying local" - the product you prefer just happens to be locally produced (and possibly can only be locally produced).

The kind of buying local that you need campaigns to encourage people to do, is generally either more expensive or poorer quality than the non-local alternative.

Re:A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs... by Nomentatus on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:03AM (#15774530)
Better is the whole point of buying local - the can't buy traditional varieties remotely because they don't ship well. Of course you COULD buy shabby shipping varieties locally, but that was never what Alice was about, and it would be a silly thing to do.