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Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by exogeny on Saturday November 11, 2017 @02:33PM (#15677718)
Snap suffers from a fundamental paradox, one that is difficult for me to imagine an easy way to solve.

They've made their bones by being a uniquely fun and social way of a certain subset of the population to share their lives without parents dipping their head in and seeing what they're doing, ala Facebook. The UI is designed to generally support this; it is confusing and messy and understandable only by someone who is innately familiar with the app, or unfamiliar with the general conventions of UX.

But what happens when that user base isn't big enough and you have to expand? What happens when you need to figure out how to sell ads in an environment when you have next to no demographic information to target against? You'd have to fundamentally change the business: algorithmic timelines, a more sensible UI, more chipping away at the anonymity - all of which will turn off their core users in droves.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by niftich on Saturday November 11, 2017 @04:31PM (#15678295)
It's not about the size of the userbase; it's about business models. They burned cash to acquire users, but once they wanted income they too have gone the advertising route. This leads to the dilution of the core experience as you've pointed out: fudged timelines [1], denser advertising, backporting of missing social networking features, leading to networks that are largely interchangeable [2].

Snapchat can't really afford to be interchangeable with Instagram, because Facebook actually knows how to persuade advertisers to keep selling ads, while Snapchat just relies on its perceived clout among a coveted demographic, providing very few mechanisms for advertisers to gauge their ROI [3]. Sooner or later, advertisers will wisen up and pull out of Snapchat, making their business model crisis all the more acute.

Snapchat is one of the best-positioned companies to actually trial different business models for their app: they have a respectable install base, their platform is still sticky and desirable enough to maintain a sizeable userbase for some time, and their preexisting userbase is aging into being able to spend some money. Defection to Instagram isn't nearly as much of a threat as many make it seem: most Snapchat users are already on Instagram as well, so as long as they continue to engage with Snapchat, all is not lost.

Their map purchase was an effort to pivot the product's monetization back to hyperlocal factors, and solidify the idea that your Snapchat friends are part of your close-knit circle. Snapchat could be a better Foursquare, but it's not quite there yet.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12191435 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13168804 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15050410

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by chuckdries on Saturday November 11, 2017 @04:45PM (#15678354)
As a heavy snapchat user, I'm a big fan of the idea of snapchat as a better foursquare/find my friends because honestly neither application ever made enough sense to keep installed longer than a week at a time.

I don't know if I'd pay for it, but if they wanted to use location to sell ads to local businesses or whatever they could probably tap an otherwise relatively untapped ad market.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by dpandya on Saturday November 11, 2017 @06:38PM (#15678808)
What kind of other models could potentially work for Snapchat other than advertising? I don't see any candidates from the list of other companies that serve young consumers.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by niftich on Saturday November 11, 2017 @07:30PM (#15678997)
At a not-even-breaking-new-ground level:

1. they could meld the treasure-hunt aspect of Pokemon Go with sponsored hyperlocal recommendations. ARGs (alternate reality games) are popular with Snapchat's core demographic, and if Snap could pitch itself as a platform for ARGs, their advertising woes would disappear.

2. microtransactions familiar from Asian messaging apps: cosmetic stuff like stickers, emoji packs, backgrounds, filters, etc

3. (macro-)transactions for large-scale content inside of Snapchat. Facebook had entire video games playable within it; there is no reason Snapchat can't do this. There is a market for VIP access for 'private' Snapchats of celebrities and creators, but today this is arranged out-of-band, because Snapchat provides no support for this in-app. Patreon was able to make headway in this underserved market.

4. Snapcash could compete with Paypal, but it's vastly overemphasized.

5. Snap Map has so much potential, and it's unexploited. From mundane to exotic, opportunities include location search, sponsored recommendations, user-generated content about real-life places (cf. Yelp), user matching for transactions (cf. Uber), user-generated content anchored in virtual space (AR stuff)...

6. Subscriptions. Either to gate specific content or features, or just for the sake of. Discord has a sponsor tier that gives a few perks but is just as much for the sake of providing support. There is always a subset of users who will pay.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by username223 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @07:58AM (#15680720)
> 1. ...sponsored hyperlocal recommendations.

> 5. ...sponsored recommendations,...

i.e. ads and ads. One of the most depressing aspects of the current tech bubble is how most "entrepreneurs" are not making new things, but finding new ways for others to advertise existing things. If they win the lottery and become billionaires, they start building rockets.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by mful on Sunday November 12, 2017 @09:53AM (#15681040)
> most "entrepreneurs" are not making new things, but finding new ways for others to advertise existing things

What a bizarrely reductionist lens through which to view Snapchat and I guess consumer apps in general — Snapchat is not it's business model (or lack thereof).

Snapchat clearly made a "new thing". It's just looking to an existing business model to monetize that new thing.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by luckydata on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:12PM (#15681519)
It's not reductionist, it's honest.

I don't see what Snapchat has done that's new. Disappearing messages? When I was a teenager we used to call them "gossip" or even just phone calls.

If the tech industry spent the amount of energy used to glorify petty crap on something more useful we would have been defeated poverty and all diseases a few weeks ago.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by username223 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @10:05AM (#15681074)
Fair enough -- my view may be too reductionist. Still, it would be refreshing to see something based on a business model other than "surveil and/or capture attention, then sell ads."
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by timthelion on Saturday November 11, 2017 @06:57PM (#15678879)
I would create an extension to the snap ecosystem, which would be called "snap graffiti". Snap graffiti would allow you to attach a geographic location to a picture. These pictures could be anything, and anyone could see the pictures by being near the location. They would only hang on to the location for a certain amount of time. This in and of itself is not a business plan. But I would then allow these pictures to be connected to economic activity. For example, I have a bunch of iron pipes in my garden which could be taken to the waste disposal arena. Any teenager could do this for me just by carying away the metal. I would be able to "snap graffiti" the pile of metal in my garden, and tag it with $5. A bored teen could then knock on my door and carry away the metal. They would get $4.50 and snap-chat would take a small service fee.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by timthelion on Sunday November 12, 2017 @05:59AM (#15680462)
For an idea what kind of income you're looking at from such a business. Imagine 4 million of their nearly 200 million users, do a $5 task every day. After credit card fees of 25.05 cents per transaction [1] that would leave 24.95 cents to snapchat for every transaction. That would be around a million dollars a day in income. Not terrible. And on valentines day, they could allow users to exchange a $5 task for a $10 coupon to Olive garden. Olive garden would, presumably give them coupons like that for free. If a million users chose that exchange, that would be an additional $4.5 million in income.

[1] https://bandcamp.com/help/selling#fee

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by dboreham on Saturday November 11, 2017 @08:05PM (#15679109)
Bored teen cuts finger on metal. Parent sues you and Snapchat.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by timthelion on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:26AM (#15680286)
Doing meaningful things is risky. But the riskiest thing of all is to do nothing meaningful. Death comes either way. You can be an advertiser or a passive middle man. You can lie, cheat, steal, and sell your way through life. You can watch yourself die, and civilization pass away into a spiraling clusterfuck of anxiety and broken dreams.

Or you can buy State Farm business insurance. The insurance that will set you free. Call a representative today.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by amigoingtodie on Saturday November 11, 2017 @07:07PM (#15678916)
Patronage for amateur adult NSFW content.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by noncoml on Saturday November 11, 2017 @02:58PM (#15677841)
> how to sell ads

Why are we so obsessed with the ads model. Why not start charging?

This is not a web app, where you have to take out your wallet and enter your CC info; all it takes is the scan of your fingerprint. I am sure people wouldn't mind paying a certain amount per year to keep using the app without creepy apps.

Sure, the revenue will be capped by the amount per year a user is willing to pay, but maybe the days of the fat cows are over?

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by wpietri on Saturday November 11, 2017 @05:45PM (#15678610)
> Why are we so obsessed with the ads model. Why not start charging?

Short answer: Metcalfe's law. "Metcalfe's law states that the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users of the system (n2)." [1]

Social networks are valuable to the extent that the people you want to talk to are on it. Charging raises a huge barrier to entry, making it very hard to create a large network.

They could try charging by usage, as with SMS, but that's hard when key competitors are free. They could also try charging for premium features, but that could hurt user growth and it's tricky to find the right basket of features that will really get people to pay.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by runeks on Sunday November 12, 2017 @03:04AM (#15680132)
> Charging raises a huge barrier to entry, making it very hard to create a large network.

Is this because digital payments are cumbersome, or are people really unwilling to drop 50 cents/mo on something they find valuable?

Imagine getting 3 months of Snap usage for free, and having the ability to make a 50 cent payment as easy as dropping two quarters in a tip jar. Would this still be a huge barrier to entry?

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by selectodude on Sunday November 12, 2017 @03:37AM (#15680202)
There is not a chance in hell I would pay to put a photo on Snapchat, and I’m of their core demographic that can actually afford to.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by noncoml on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:34PM (#15681634)
Would you pay $1 a month to not see ads and not have your data be sent to third party companies?
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by wpietri on Tuesday November 14, 2017 @12:48AM (#15692969)
That's not really a winning value proposition. The first part won't resonate broadly; the bulk of America is perfectly comfortable seeing ads. And the second part raises a question they desperately don't want to raise: what are big companies doing with all that personal data?
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by diminish on Sunday November 12, 2017 @02:10AM (#15680028)
To add - earlier WhatsApp and other messaging was seen by most adopters as a free SMS replacement.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by retailbuyout on Sunday November 12, 2017 @09:23AM (#15680929)
Nobody is preventing them from offering either ads OR a subscription service.

Hey if they discover it too late, that’s on them!

At their size, there are few changes that will help user growth without improving content.... goood luck with that.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by nemothekid on Saturday November 11, 2017 @03:28PM (#15678003)
1. Snaps core demo likely doesn’t have the discretionary income to pay for a social network.

2. Snaps main competitor would have a far lower barrier to entry - free

3. If all your friends can’t pay for Snap, you will likely move regardless if you are a paying customer. Why would I pay for a network with 80% of my friends when I can use a near clone with 100% of my friends.

4. Facebook nearly $7/user a month with an ad model. Ads are fare more lucrative than subscriptions

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by randoman on Saturday November 11, 2017 @05:01PM (#15678422)
Snap's ARPU is about $1 per quarter. Surely the core demo can afford even a 100% markup on that?

My problem with any ad model is it incentivises the maximisation of views/engagement that allow for more/stickier ad impressions which means a proliferation of viral/tabloid/divisive content like youtube/snap/facebook. Once that incentive can be minimised, the incentive to provide quality product that users then feel willing to pay for can become more important.

Of course, these networks didn't attract the user numbers they have by charging up front so for any challenger to come along and try this model will be extremely difficult due to the aforementioned friction in either getting out your credit card to pay or paying up front for an app. People will gladly shell out hundreds of dollars for a new phone but won't shell out a fraction of that for a quality app on that phone.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by nemothekid on Saturday November 11, 2017 @07:33PM (#15679009)
Lets skip the fact that a your average 17yo may not even have a credit card to begin with.

If Snap were to start charging tomorrow, what would their value ad / sales pitch be?

The original reason people used Snap was ephemeral communication with their friends. Snap can't "sell" that. If I buy the Snap App, and my friends aren't there then the app is useless to me. The smaller the network is, the less valuable it is to me - and if I do buy in, it then becomes my job to also convince my friends that Snap is worth is paying for. If one of my friends does not renew their subscription, the value of the service to me also declines. I don't think any social network can be viable by subscription - the most valuable part of a social network is the network, and the under a subscription fee, "Snap" would always have to choose between making the network for valuable and generating revenue.

Thats why the ad model works so well for social networks. The more people you have, the more attractive it is to consumers as well as advertisers. This is different from something like a news publisher - the amount of people also reading from that same publisher doesn't affect my enjoyment of their content.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by azinman2 on Saturday November 11, 2017 @06:33PM (#15678784)
How do you get a 12 yo to pay for anything, especially when Insta is free and does much of the same stuff?
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by fullshark on Saturday November 11, 2017 @07:20PM (#15678965)
The second they charge, 75% of users go to Instagram and don’t come back.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by pkaye on Saturday November 11, 2017 @09:57PM (#15679423)
> Snaps core demo likely doesn’t have the discretionary income to pay for a social network.

How valuable are a demographics with no discretionary income to advertisers?

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by thedrbrian on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:28AM (#15679950)
Here’s an example,

This year I want a [blank] from Santa/father Christmas.....

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by pkaye on Sunday November 12, 2017 @11:02PM (#15684194)
I want a Snap Spectacles for Christmas!
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday November 11, 2017 @03:26PM (#15677992)
> I am sure people wouldn't mind paying a certain amount per year to keep using the app without creepy apps.

What makes you so sure? Given that there are basically no successful social networks that charge, I'm very skeptical.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by noncoml on Saturday November 11, 2017 @03:37PM (#15678052)
It’s a figure of speech, but my guess is based on the amount of money people pay for game apps.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by natalyarostova on Saturday November 11, 2017 @03:33PM (#15678031)
There seems to be a social convention that has formed around social media products that the user should never have to take out their credit card and actually pay. It makes sense why it started this way, since network effects are everything in this space.

But like many things that start one way for a good reason, that reason is eventually forgotten and the state of the world is codified into a shared social norm. Most people either don't care or are unfavorable to social media sites selling their info, yet I predict the outcry towards their charging would be enormous.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by Barrin92 on Saturday November 11, 2017 @04:00PM (#15678173)
I'm also unsure about the userbase. It seems like the average Snap user is very young. Paywalling the app will probably drastically increase the barrier for people to use the app.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by KallDrexx on Saturday November 11, 2017 @05:40PM (#15678592)
Snapchat is already losing people because Instagram is copying their core features. Charging money will just cause people to leave to Instagram even faster.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by runeks on Sunday November 12, 2017 @02:58AM (#15680119)
> This is not a web app, where you have to take out your wallet and enter your CC info; all it takes is the scan of your fingerprint.

But you need a CC to begin with. What percentage of Snap’s user base has a CC?

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by dpandya on Saturday November 11, 2017 @06:41PM (#15678821)
> I am sure people wouldn't mind paying a certain amount per year to keep using the app without creepy apps.

I really don't think this is the case. For the demographic that currently uses Snapchats (mostly 18 to 24 year-olds), paying for mobile software at all is a pretty significant behavior change.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by noncoml on Saturday November 11, 2017 @07:02PM (#15678900)
It doesn’t have to be subscription or pay to download. You have the user looking at your App 12 hours a day. Be innovative on how to extract money from them.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by amigoingtodie on Saturday November 11, 2017 @07:09PM (#15678929)
Where are you getting your demographic info for SNAP from?
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by dboreham on Saturday November 11, 2017 @04:19PM (#15678259)
Humans really don’t like to pay for stuff.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by capkutay on Saturday November 11, 2017 @03:39PM (#15678063)
ad buyers are also consumers.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by jehlakj on Saturday November 11, 2017 @08:27PM (#15679175)
UX in the context of their target audience is simple, elegant and concise. Young people have an easy time getting used to different gestures and their respective actions. And once you get used to it (it took me a while cause I’m a bit old), it’s super convenient.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by glenstein on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:00PM (#15681765)
There seems to be a natural arc to the process we keep reading about: Get investors & users with your cool design. Burn cash. Have an IPO. Flail as you try to monetize.

But, they're at least succeeding at something that Google couldn't do if their life depended on it, which is make a social thing people want to use.

What I don't get is why Google doesn't just swoop in either at the early stage or at flailing-and-monetization stage, buy them and stick them in their back pocket.

Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by mwcampbell on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:51PM (#15681726)
I wonder if the confusing, messy UX you talk about (I've never used the app) is a deliberate strategy, or just bad design.
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by warent on Saturday November 11, 2017 @02:56PM (#15677834)
Not sure it should even be given the lofty status of paradox. Would simply mark it up to a bad business model
Re:Snap’s Rise and Fall: How a Big, Splashy IPO Prompted the... by BoorishBears on Saturday November 11, 2017 @02:59PM (#15677854)
Snapchat doesn’t feel like a company with a business model that couldn’t be very successful, but it also doesn’t feel like there was ever a fighting chance of justifying it’s IPO evaluation