While the experience itself may resemble psychosis at times, lsd/mushrooms, when taken in a proper setting, will not turn you mentally unsound.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/ "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems."

Now everyone agrees 16 yr olds shouldn't be abusing any psychoactive drugs while their brain is still developing, but don't ruin it for us adults, it is an important part of the human experience (though it isn't for everyone, since for psychedelics, expanding the way you view life is generally the end goal.)

Granted, I haven't really taken any large doses, but for me psychoactives don't expand my perception in any way. They're just a really really fun thing to do a few times a year, when I have nothing else to do for 8 hours. I never experienced the spiritual element, or oneness with the universe, etc. Maybe I need to take more than 100ug.

I definitely feel it's a pity that it's illegal and so demonized, though. It's the most fun I've had with $4, and I unreservedly recommend it.

LSD is hit or miss for that really deep trancendent experience. There is a lot of low quality acid that just feels speedy with some visual enhancement.

Try Ayahuasca. In my experience it is much more consistently mystical.

Or insist on actual LSD and not some cheap psychoactive passing as such?

Pretty sure it was LSD (and mushrooms once), I've bought from different people.

Saying that because I've seen people selling crap as LSD before -- especially in one-off encounters.

Ah, I buy from well-reviewed online vendors only.

It's possible that people gravitate towards different drugs in a way that makes the users of any given drug a non-representative sample.

If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity.

I also don't use weed, because it just simply makes me uncomfortable. That could be my brain protecting me from weed, as I may have strong tendency to go completely insane with prolonged use.

Those are just anecdotal speculations to illustrate a point. I'm not really claiming that they are any sort of facts.

>If I use myself as example. I don't use any psychedelics because I'm completely satisfied with my level of creativity. As a result it's possible that we completely lack data on how psychedelics mingle with naturally high creativity.

Given that tons of (already very creative) musicians, painters, writers, etc have tried and used them, I really doubt this...

You don't need to be creative to sing or play. You need to be creative to compose.

Do we actually know that many creative musicians, writers etc. were creative before using? I'd imagine it's really tricky to track down the starting dates of drug use. Or when someone started composing for that matter.

But yeah, that was just to illustrate the point anyhow. And the point is that people self select heavily on which drugs they use. So the user group of any drug is not representative sample.

Could you try them and let us know, instead of speculating what may or may not exist?

...and produce single anecdote. Boy I'm misunderstood here big time.

Take this however you want, but I know that a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught. I'm not sure about "the boundaries of perception", from what I remember weed didn't alter my reality much more than getting really drunk does.

I don't think it's helpful to put cannabis in the same baket as literally hallucinogenic substances like LSD or "magic mushrooms".

(By the way, I don't smoke weed anymore and possibly never will again.)

>a significant source of anxiety for me when I tried weed was the severeness of the consequences if I had been caught.

In most of the civilized western world (EU etc), usually not even a slap on the wrist.

I'm from a country in the EU and I can tell you that in 99% of EU states (The Netherlands excluded), having cannabis on your person will not entail "a slap on the wrist". Sweden, like another commenter mentioned, is very strict. Also, your exclusion of Poland is borderline ignorant.

On that topic, few things is more irritating than reading a high-nosed comment telling you that "actually, in the EU/civilized world..." as if you were american when you're not and you do actually live in that fantasy land you're being lectured about. It happens a lot these days.

That's definitely not the case in Poland, which is part of the EU.

Yeah, hence "western" -- for me the "real" EU would always be the early 12 states :-)

That's a rather bizarre definition, by which Greece is a ”Western" country (ex-Byzantine!), while eg. Switzerland is not.

And also in those "real" EU states, you can get serious problems, if you are in the health sector for example.

But if you are a student wanning to become a software-developer, then yes, allmost nobody cares.

Could you elaborate on the problems?

Not in detail, but afaik they can revoke your permit to work in health sector, if you get charges from drugs, as you are then not seen fit.

Also in bavaria, there have been charges against people for driving under drugs, even though they only posessed them and did not consume at that time ...

In Sweden, which I definitely consider to be part of the "civilized western part of the world", getting caught with weed has dire consequences.

I agree. Weed (etc.) can not be healthy "for fitting into normal, standard life".

But there is a different view to it, than just claiming "drugs are bad".

Because there are quite some people claiming, that a "normal, standard life" with a 9 to 5 job and bounded by many weird social customs in a hectic enviroment which very often rewards lying and assholeness - is in itself not healthy. And some drugs can enable people to step outside and see things from a different angle, that "normal" is maybe not allways good. And that a different "normal" might be possible.

The main problem arises if those people now decide to escape into the psychodelic world, instead of using their insights to actually do things differently. Most of them will mentally break down, sooner or later.

And btw. "If you take ten 16 yr olds, allow them to experiment" ... most 16 yr olds will experiment, whether you allow them, or not. Which I think is good in general, for progress for the new generation, but I think the chances are much higher for things go dark, if you push them too much into illegality. Then it is much harder to help them find moderation and balancing.

So I would argue, drugs can be and are beneficial for society to develop. But they are powerful and therefore dangerous.

I don't disagree BUT there is a cost with consumption In My Opinion.

p.s. I was part of the ten 16 yr olds. I am very aware of how far it can go.

For sure there is a cost. But there is a cost with everything.

And I know that it can go very far. And also very far down. Actually I have to deal with exactly that right now. Someone who started of dreaming of a better world, but now reduced to a lying, selfish asshole, who now only cares, on how to sneak money out of people around him, so he can continue doing nothing and smoke his last brain cells out, while blaming everyone else. No wonder this person developed a heavy psychosis. So I know of the dangers.

But still, this person is an excemption, because otherwise allmost everyone I know of my generation, smoked weed (or more) at some point, got new experience of it or just had fun - and now lives a ordinary life.

"very often rewards lying and assholeness". How true.

How do you mean? Most folks I know who regularly use marijuana aren't close to anything I'd call schizoaffective.

Those who I know whom have gone off the deep end so to say, seem to have had other troubles in life which compounded to become too much to handle for them.

It's probably a bit of column A and a bit of column B.

Are you replying to me? So, you are suggesting my story is lies? I guess you should study stats to know that there are more than 60 people in this world.

Clearly weed has not helped me comment on HN . Wrong reply

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Same can be said about the original comment. Nothing in there of value except some dubious extrapolations.

Yes. countering it with another anecdote doesn't really help though.

Could you be more descriptive about the "close call" you had "with the boundaries of perception"? I've been using cannabis daily for over a decade to be a normal person, having found that it removes my anxiety, and allows me to operate as a normal individual in society. When I am not using, I become a terrible anxious mess who can't even talk to clerks in stores.

Also your last sentence seems incomplete - did you intend to complete your thought, or at least use punctuation?

The problem with cannabis is its extreme variance of effects. Some people like yourself seem to have very positive effects. Myself, I've consumed a whole wack of different drugs including the usual psychedelics plus various dissociatives over the years and cannabis is easily the most unpleasant in its effects on me.

Paranoia, very unpleasant thoughts and paranoia, sad feeling, accentuated body pain (I have chronic back/hip pain), headaches, anxiety. It's basically the opposite of what THC advocates seem to describe. And I've consumed quite a bit of it.

Hopefully along with legalization we can see a lot less proselytizing and some more realistic and scientific analysis.

> Myself, I've consumed a whole wack of different drugs including the usual psychedelics plus various dissociatives over the years and cannabis is easily the most unpleasant in its effects on me.

I'm the same.

Cannabis is easily the most unpleasant drug for me these days (don't do them so much anymore though). It just gives me paranoia and anxiety and makes me totally unable to hold a conversation or even relax.

Compare that with LSD, MDMA, DMT where I generally have positive experiences. The only bad ones I've had are when I've foolishly taken them when not in the best of moods.

Most of those feelings are pretty common if you smoke too much pot.

I have a very low tolerance for it and while I had a few good times with it, I had what you describe happen more often than not.

But the feeling you have while on drugs generally goes away when you’re not on them. I wouldn’t assume that because taking a drug gives you a feeling that approximates a psychological problem that it would necessarily be a cause of that psychological problem beyond the time you were intoxicated.

I don't make that assumption at all. But I've also seen many people, including family, go down a road with the drug that did in fact lead to pretty severe emotional and life function difficulties that went away after the cessation of the drug.

All of this applies to alcohol as well, surely... but that is hardly a high bar.

I was a lot more tolerant of cannabis advocacy before I had kids and before legalization came on the agenda here in Canada. Now that it will be legal I hope the emphasis shifts away from advocacy and to education for responsible use.

> did in fact lead to pretty severe emotional and life function difficulties that went away after the cessation of the drug.

I did in fact say that the psychological problems go away when you stop using the drug. Obviously if you're on drugs all the time, you're going to have problems.

Yes, when kids come around you view it in a different light. There are consequences of both and I'll advise my kids differently around both.

Which terpenes are in the plant can have a subtle but powerful impact. And THC can leverage terpenes in other foods too. Some are very calming.

And then there's the non-intoxicating CBD parts, that are becoming popular for those who want the relaxation, but not the head high.

Alcohol has a very broad scope as well, ranging from toxic cleaners, to light dessert wines, to tripel beers and "four loco" drinks. It's very easy to have a bad trip, or a fun night turn deadly.

Took drugs. Got scared about my mental health as my thoughts were very powerful. Others around suffered worse which compounded fact. I was very, very lucky to have survived and have turned that experience into knowledge (which has only come in the last year after 20 years).

Psychedelics (LSD and mushrooms) are VERY different in their effects than weed. Have tried both categories.

So have I, and I've had extreme reactions to both. LSD was actually the easiest on me if I consider my worst experiences together. A bad mushroom trip, being the worst of the worst, left my personality in tatters and it took me over a year to truly recover from the experience. Marijuana induces crippling anxiety in me. I was having issues sleeping a few years ago, so I got a medical card. Even one hit was overwhelming. When I was a late teenager, I would smoke a couple times a week and it was generally fine. I'm not sure how or why my body responds the way it does but, personally, it's not at all fun and not at all relaxing or mind expanding in the ways most people suggest. It's just a really shitty time and it's mostly impossible to talk to other users about it because they don't have these responses and don't understand it.

A bad trip will happen if you take a psychedelic when you are not in a particularly good mood.

If something has been recently bothering you, or you are stressed or depressed or angry about something, those feelings are going to come up to the surface and manifest in very unpredictable ways, given the nature of hallucinogenics.

I learned that lesson myself. Never take a psychedelic unless you are in a good place, emotionally.

It's a moot point for me, at this point in my life. Hopefully it's good advice for someone else. With the psychedelics, we're talking about a 2-3 year period of my life that started roughly 20 years ago. And what you're saying is all common knowledge to myself and my then-friend group. I honestly have no idea what my frame of mind was but I don't recall ever starting a trip in a bad state of mind. I just know that I had good trips and I know that I had bad trips. And the bad trips went very, very bad and grew over time in both frequency and intensity. Maybe I was taking too much? It didn't seem like it, at the time, at least in retrospect. Who knows.

But then, I can't reconcile these things with my experiences with medical marijuana in 2012, either. I was a recreational smoker for probably 4 or 5 years of my life before the bad mushroom trip (after which, I wholesale quit drugs the very next day and also didn't have a drop of alcohol for 5-6 years). I never really experienced much anxiety from marijuana in my youth, but when I went back in 2012 it was a totally different ball game. I worked with my dispensary to try to sort out a strain that would help me and came up short.

FWIW, I opted instead to address the utter lack of physical activity in my life and it sorted out the sleep issues and has persisted to today.

Your anecdote and needlessly aggressive comment do make a very compelling argument.

But in all seriousness: can you explain why you feel so strongly about this?

EDIT: the person I responded to edited their comment to make it 'milder'.

I hate seeing utter lies like this in any debate. It's propaganda and I react strongly to it. Claiming 50% of teenagers smoking weed, let alone lsd, will have problems is an utter, out-right lie.

I was never into drugs like friends, if that's what you're insinuating. I tried a few, but beer was my drug of choice, and nicotine for a while.

There are polls where something like 40-50% of UK teenagers (and probably US) had tried weed.

If this guy were even vaguely right we'd see an epidemic of metal health problems right now.

I don't disagree with you concerning OP's claims, so I'm mostly on your side, but I don't see how you're helping by 1) frothing at the mouth at a point of view that, however wrong it may be, is very common, and 2) making an equally unbalanced claim of the opposite based on anecdata.

There's plenty of evidence that pot smoking can at the very least exacerbate problems, which strikes me as blindingly obvious when it comes to any substance that has mood altering effects as strong as weed, and I have just as much anecdata to support that view.

That said, I guess I can understand the frustration. I don't know where you live and what the status of weed is, but as a Dutch person I do realize that I don't (often) have to deal with the 'weed is evil' argument, and consequently it's easier for me to not get too upset about it.

Yeah whatever you don't like is evil fearmongering. And they don't even say trying it will drive you nuts.

Quoting obviously nonsense statistics in this case seems like fear-mongering to me.

There is a reference to a study on the topic elsewhere on the thread, and in the article itself, if I'm not mistaken. Also AFAIK it's not required to be a medical doctor to talk about these issues here, and not everyone has a list of publications on every topic they discuss. If you think a view is wrong then answer it, but name-calling and accusations only undermine any such discussion. It's not like the opposer is citing the literature too.

>can you explain why you feel so strongly about this?

Because he doesn't like BS arguments?

And because "so strongly" is not based on some objective measurement, but what you could gauge from a random comment. Maybe he likes/is used to using strong language (e.g. like Linus is) without necessarily feeling that "strongly" about it.

> Because he doesn't like BS arguments?

I agree that they're BS, but they're common and pernicious, and as such worth a proper response, frustrating as that might be.

> And because "so strongly" is not based on some objective measurement, but what you could gauge from a random comment. Maybe he likes/is used to using strong language (e.g. like Linus is) without necessarily feeling that "strongly" about it.

Fair enough. I got that impression because of some other comments by the same person in this thread, but you're right, I might be reading into things.

Well, you might be right too (I haven't noticed that the parent had multiple comments about it).

Just that I find a question like "why do you feel so strongly about X" can be infuriating, and make the other indeed feel strongly (when they were just casually writing their opinion with some strong words before).

Kind of like "relax" can make someone angry ("I AM relax") when they were perfectly relaxed before.

Perhaps you are paranoid which is in no way related to weed.

Probably because he has a problem with fear mongering.

It’s not fear mongering. The Lancet published an article about continued and discontinued use of cannabis after psychosis.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-03...

But it states that there is a well established link between cannabis and psychosis.

Yeah but the numbers are far lower than OP suggested.

No, this is disingenuous fear mongering.

The article you linked examines psychosis outcomes after quitting marijuana. It does not show evidence that psychosis is caused by marijuana.

In fact, the article is similarly misleading, as it makes reference to two studies which show, in the article's words, a "link" between psychosis and cannibus use. However, the two articles cited for this assertion [0][1] similarly only discuss a correlative link between psychosis and marijuana.

While the correlative relationship between marijuana and psychosis is well established, there is anything but a consensus for the causal relationship between illness and marijuana.

As they say, correlation != causation.

Edit: furthermore, I encourage you to browse the wikipedia page [2], which supports my assertion with multiple sources: neither consensus nor causal link has been established. You are spreading potentially harmful misinformation.

[0]Arseneault, L, Cannon, M, Witton, J, and Murray, RM. Causal association between cannabis and psychosis: examination of the evidence. Br J Psychiatry. 2004; 184: 110–117

[1]Stepniak, B, Papiol, S, Hammer, C et al. Accumulated environmental risk determining age at schizophrenia onset: a deep phenotyping-based study. Lancet Psychiatry. 2014; 1: 444–453

[2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_cannabi...

I’m hardly spreading potentially misleading information. There is actually a wide body of evidence that amongst certain people cannabis can cause psychosis. It’s far more harmful in that your sole reference is a fairly partisan Wikipedia article. Give me primary sources, don’t give me a tertiary source like Wikipedia.

I resent your being down voted, by a audience running out of arguments.

If something that attacks your lifestyle or a dependency of it and you can not bring arguments forth, this does not give you the right to silence the debate.

It's pretty par for the course really.

My brother got heavily into weed at a young age (15-16). He developed strong schizophrenia. Was medicated which helped him, but went off the meds, left his wife, and died falling off a train that he was graffiting.

And you attribute this development to the weed because correlation is causation?

Well... both. But you're right.

I'm not going to claim that weed has absolutely no downsides like some recreational use fanatics, but I'm going to suggest that he was predisposed to mental illness with or without the weed.

Though it did probably exacerbate it.

Or it was the schizophrenia that made him heavily addicted to weed?

Weed (THC) can trigger mental episodes in those with a propensity for it. Sorry to hear that.