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Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tehwebguy on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:09AM (#15477415)
Ajit Pai is stoked about this.

If you work for AT&T, Verizon, etc you have a responsibility to stop this even by sabotage.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tootie on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:55PM (#15477949)
So are the 45% or so of voters who picked Trump knowing he opposed internet privacy.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by godelski on Sunday October 15, 2017 @02:53PM (#15478578)
Having moved to the south, and in an area where the percentage of Trump voters (and current supporters) are the VAST majority, they don't know about this stuff. And if you try to explain what data can be gathered they don't really believe you. Let alone saying what can be done, or the damages of that data being hacked. Though this Equifax thing has been helping me convey the importance to them.

tldr: They aren't aware. They aren't techies.

P.S. We're in a two party system. Just because you agree with some policies doesn't mean you agree with all policies.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by bjelkeman-again on Sunday October 15, 2017 @07:51PM (#15480016)
I think a large part of your problem is your voting system. Representative democracy with proportional representation and no gerrymandering is what is needed, imho.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by Bud on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:22PM (#15478045)
Most of those voters probably have a very poor or non-existent understanding of internet privacy and an even poorer understanding of government's impact on internet privacy.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tootie on Sunday October 15, 2017 @02:42PM (#15478496)
I think some gross generalization. Reddit's Trump community were pretty strongly supportive of privacy and net neutrality but just decided Trump was ok anyway.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by Bud on Sunday October 15, 2017 @08:49PM (#15480171)
Reddit's Trump community? So basically, you're talking about the top 0.001% of Trump voters in tech savviness, just by virtue of them being on reddit.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by sixothree on Sunday October 15, 2017 @02:54PM (#15478587)
My theory is that right wing voters do not really care about policy. They seem to respond more the displays of strength.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tootie on Sunday October 15, 2017 @03:12PM (#15478704)
That's a bingo. Exhibit A is Trump giving the keynote at the Values Voters Summit.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by cmurf on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:36PM (#15478096)
Or they do not care about privacy, they only care about their taxes being lowered while believing that voting GOP will get them lowered taxes.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by chronicy292 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:26PM (#15480643)
Yep. Software engineer at Google in Mountain View here. I voted for Trump.

I literally do not give a damn about anything else other than lowering my taxes. I don't care about climate change (it is being accelerated by humans, I agree) and I literally don't care about BART or SF public transit or homelessness. Just give me my clean air vehicle tag so I can drive in the carpool lane as a single driver in my Model S.

Yes, there are tens of thousands of people like me in the bay area.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by wfo on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:58PM (#15480736)
You are quite right to point this out so explicitly. It is something we all have to deal with -- the way that wealth and power and privilege insulate people from having to care about anything other than their own excess and immunize people against normal human emotions like empathy, kindness, the ability to recognize and appreciate your own luck and consider the misfortune of others, etc.

STEM folks are the most susceptible to this, I think -- working in a technical field tends to isolate you from other people. Being wealthy and working in a technical field is horribly alienating. You literally, over time, lose the capacity to understand others or consider them as people.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tootie on Monday October 16, 2017 @05:04PM (#15486649)
Double for working in the valley which is like a giant tech worker gated community.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by shadowchair on Monday October 16, 2017 @04:17AM (#15481639)
Out of curiosity, do you not care about breathing unhealthy air? Are you aware we just had 5 or so days of unhealthy air (worse than Beijing air quality) because of the wildfires to our north, which are being worsened and increased by climate change? -- https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/09/why-is-2...
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by rhizome on Sunday October 15, 2017 @06:18PM (#15479657)
Trump's base is white people, not (necessarily) dumb people.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by gerdesj on Sunday October 15, 2017 @08:31PM (#15480123)
That's facile and incredibly trite. His base is voters, regardless of creed, race, colour or intelligence.

I'm not a Trump fan (nor even American) but I think your analysis of skin colour based demographics is probably flawed in some way.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by Dylan16807 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @06:33PM (#15479713)
People aren't dumb for having a poor grasp on internet privacy.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by rhizome on Sunday October 15, 2017 @07:28PM (#15479940)
True! I should have been more specific about the form of ignorance.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by r00fus on Sunday October 15, 2017 @03:17PM (#15478739)
A large portion of those voters are paranoid about the government taking their stuff and keeping lists.

Yet if it's privatized it's ok.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by axaxs on Sunday October 15, 2017 @03:04PM (#15478663)
Oh, as opposed to all the internet privacy the last administration(s) gave us?
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by throwawayjava on Sunday October 15, 2017 @05:23PM (#15479378)
Setting the whataboutism aside, you're also wrong.

I think it's fair to say that the (potential for) harm wasn't sufficiently strong in the public psyche to justify White House-level attention prior to (and probably including) W Bush. Also, the distinction between ISP and Telco was still sufficiently weak that existing Telco regulations designed to protect consumer privacy still had teeth when applied to ISPs. It wasn't until the Obama admin that ISPs starting suing to disentangle themselves from Telco regulations.

As for Obama, well... if you haven't heard net neutrality described as "obamacare for the internet", then you're not paying attention. But there's only so much anyone can do with out controlling the Legislative branch.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by axaxs on Sunday October 15, 2017 @10:56PM (#15480558)
This is about privacy, not net neutrality. I wouldn't conflate the two.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by throwawayjava on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:58AM (#15483208)
Again, you're just wrong. Selling/sharing consumer browsing activity were both components of the FCC net neutrality rules.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by axaxs on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:10AM (#15483280)
Did you actually read the article, or are you just really stretching to be able to say 'wrong'...
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by throwawayjava on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:03PM (#15484211)
> Did you actually read the article, or are you just really stretching to be able to say 'wrong'...

No, really, your assertion that Obama-era Net Neutrality rules and privacy rules are disconnected is simply wrong! See "What does that have to do with privacy? " on https://www.epic.org/privacy/netneutrality/

When people talk about rolling back FCC rules on net neutrality, they are -- by definition! -- talking about rolling back these privacy protections. There's no debate to be had here.

More generally, you may be confused by timelines. Hopefully this will help:

pre-2014: Phone companies and ISPs begin tracking customers.

2014 - 2016: FCC begins process of cracking down on this sort of behavior (e.g., see top comment on this story).

2017: FCC reverses course on that crackdown.

Perhaps you are claiming that there wasn't a substantive change in valence on the issue of consumer privacy within the FCC and other regulatory agencies over the past six months. And perhaps "net neutrality" means something very specific do you. But that doesn't mean that late Obama-era net neutrality rules weren't aimed and strengthening privacy protections. They were.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by just2n on Sunday October 15, 2017 @08:11PM (#15480072)
> Ajit Pai is stoked about this.

This seems like an unfair claim. Since you didn't provide a citation, I looked for one. I found plenty of articles insisting that Ajit Pai and through association that Trump are both out to harm privacy online, but this is typically an inference based on the fact that Ajit is blocking more regulations placed on ISPs. His reasoning has consistently been anything that makes it harder to compete (the context is in small-medium businesses, think tiny companies trying to upset Comcast or AT&T) is bad, and specifically in this case that extra regulations on ISPs that businesses (read: the entities that actually have virtually all of your data) are not required to follow is unnecessarily limiting to competition. That's really not the same as "Ajit Pai is stoked about this." I will thus consider this bullshit until someone actually asks him what he thinks about this and whether he supports it. I doubt he does, because I doubt anyone does, and because it appears it may already be illegal.

The DNS entry for this site is already gone, though I can't tell if it was an action by GoDaddy or if it was explicitly removed to hide the page. In either case, that kind of response indicates guilt to me, and unless the ISPs are explicitly informing people that this is happening, it may already be illegal. I'd expect a class action lawsuit to determine that, and legislation to make it illegal for ANY ENTITY, be it a business operating on the internet or an ISP, to do this without consent from the user, which is what we really need.

I've been very annoyed at businesses like Spokeo that operate entirely in the realm of selling information about people, and they're fueled by shit that Facebook, Google, and friends freely offer about people, and now worse what about cross-referencing what they already have (everything in this case plus things like residential history, criminal history, etc) with your entire credit history and SSN and more thanks to Equifax and even hashed passwords due to the dozens of leaks we get every year.

I don't think this belongs in the FCC's wheelhouse, this belongs in Congress, because this kind of shit is getting out of hand, and it's not just ISPs.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by burkaman on Sunday October 15, 2017 @09:33PM (#15480332)
Last year he voted against regulations that made this illegal: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/23/521253258/...

Voting against the regulations means he did not want them to pass, but they did. They were repealed this year, which logically he must have been happy about. Unless he publicly states otherwise, it is fair to conclude that he is happy with the most direct obvious consequences of the repeal.

In theory it's possible that Pai supports the goals of the regulations but disagrees with the means, but has stayed completely silent about his support and made no effort to accomplish the goals through more appropriate means. There is no meaningful difference between that and simply opposing the regulation because he doesn't like its goals.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tehwebguy on Monday October 16, 2017 @05:41AM (#15481973)
[dead]
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by murukesh_s on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:16PM (#15477767)
It's different being the top-management vs working there. You can't generalize all of them as not having soul or is evil. Seriously. Unless you have been in their situation, you cant judge. Not everyone would get the freedom to work at their dream role/job/company.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by ethbro on Sunday October 15, 2017 @10:51PM (#15480550)
Within the last year, I took a 20% pay cut to move to a company I felt more ethically comfortable with, and I still feel good about the decision.

It's not about one's dream role/job/company. It's about whether one is willing to tolerate something that makes one ethically uncomfortable for a number on a check... or not.

And although everyone's circumstances are different, I know far more people who work for shady companies and live in McMansions than ones who do it to support their family.

Judgy? Absolutely. But there are a lot of jobs out there: if you work at Comcast / US NSA / Chinese Bureau of Public Information and Network Security Supervision then it's because you don't have a problem with how they conduct business.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tehwebguy on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:52AM (#15477637)
I don’t agree, it’s still worth reaching out to these people.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by ethbro on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:03PM (#15477692)
Granted as possible, I'd just offer the following points.

(1) These companies (as far as I know) tend to be technically and creatively conservative (in the sense that they don't like new ideas). (2) They have a captive market and effective monopolies. (3) The type of engineer likely to work at such a company values stability over risk. (4) There is C-level and down support for policies / products like the original article that generate profit. (5) It's a small enough industry (in terms of number of companies) that getting blackballed is feasible.

In that context, I don't foresee a logical person making an ethical decision (for leaking or sabotage) when it goes against his or her employer's wishes.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by droopybuns on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:42AM (#15477594)
Should google employees? Facebook? Twitter? Chrome devs?
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by jchw on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:17PM (#15477776)
Realistically, why would the answer be no? We've not established thoroughly that programmers have a duty to refuse to commit crimes or at least carry out morally bankrupt plans, but I don't think that people will or should be less critical when the hammer comes down. Just look toward the VW case. Is it worth risking your job to do the right thing?

In my opinion, the answer is never no. I speak as someone who has actually refused to implement functionality on the basis of ethics before.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by artificial on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:40PM (#15478120)
People have as much morality as they can afford.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by jchw on Sunday October 15, 2017 @02:35PM (#15478454)
I think that, as a coworker of mine has suggested, the situation will improve as programming matures as a field of work. Something like a professional's association could work wonders if well executed. I'm not looking forward to all of the associated crap, but you win some, you lose some.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by rocqua on Sunday October 15, 2017 @06:51PM (#15479797)
There is too much growth and change in the industry at the moment. One might argue that growth and change are inherent to ICT, but maybe that's just us hyping our own field.

In any case, the market is moving way to fast for professional licensing. Both when it comes to total demand of coders, and when it comes to the churn in required knowledge. A licensed coder that thinks jQuery is the best way to write a web-app is not going to be hired over an unlicensed coder with experience in angular/react.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by beams_of_light on Sunday October 15, 2017 @04:38PM (#15479178)
Great way of putting it.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by jimktrains2 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:05PM (#15477710)
Yes, all devs should stand up to their moral beliefs. Web analytics isn't necessarily evil, but something like this article is pointing is definitely coming pretty close.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by Matt3o12_ on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:57PM (#15477953)
Coming pretty close? They have definitely crossed a lot of lines at that point. They give your personal information, your name, email and even phone number, just because you have visited some site? I don’t have a problem if a websites checks how many times I log in, and do stuff. That is reasonable to accept. Tracking me across multiple different sites is morally questionable but giving you my freaking private information to anyone who asks and pays even though I have never agreed to that is just morally wrong. And that comes from my carrier whom I expect to take care of my personal information, because they have complete control over my internet and can even see what I’m doing on the internet (yes even encrypted traffic can tell you a lot about someone). It’s not like I really have a choice which Carrier to use because there are so few out there and each one of them is a different kind of shady.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by jimktrains2 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:06PM (#15477989)
Evil is a pretty strong word. I just wasn't sure if this is evil or just dishonest and super super shitty.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by gizmo on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:48PM (#15477921)
What the telcos are doing here is crossing the line by a mile. A case can be made for anonymized bulk analytics. Stalking individual users like this is totally unacceptable. The executives who came up with this and the engineers who implemented this are absolutely in the wrong, and should be held responsible.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by jimktrains2 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:07PM (#15477992)
Evil is a pretty strong word. I just wasn't sure if this is evil or just dishonest and super super shitty. They've definitely crossed the acceptability line.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by alsetmusic on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:46PM (#15478155)
After saying it once in the thread, it is not useful to repeat a comment one minute later in a new post. I see that you added a sentence, but this does not suddenly make the previous word-for-word reiteration a new idea.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by jimktrains2 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @02:28PM (#15478408)
I agree that it clutters the thread, but the flip side is that many people don't come back to the full thread and only view replies.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by evanlivingston on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:52AM (#15477635)
Yes.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by QAPereo on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:49AM (#15477623)
Anyone with a sabot to throw, and a brain at this point.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by saimiam on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:13PM (#15477748)
What’s a sabot?
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by enraged_camel on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:22PM (#15477797)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot_(shoe)

It's where the word sabotage comes from.

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by tritium on Sunday October 15, 2017 @04:09PM (#15479030)
An adaptor fitting, intended for kinetic energy penetrators which occupy a smaller diameter caliber than the barrel of the ballistic weapon they are being fired from.
Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by nasredin on Sunday October 15, 2017 @07:53PM (#15480021)
Used in modern anti-tank rounds.

The DSAT in the name of these rounds stands for

Discarding

Sabot

Anti

Tank

Re:US telcos appear to be selling non-anonymized access to c... by pilsetnieks on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:21PM (#15477793)
A French wooden shoe.