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Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by seibelj on Thursday October 12, 2017 @10:56PM (#15462983)
At this point everyone remotely interested in blockchain should buy $1-5k of bitcoin and hold it forever. Much better odds than a roulette table, and decent chance it's worth 100x by the time you retire. Or you lose it all. But if you are a rich HN tech nerd then what do you care anyway?
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by nosuchthing on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:04PM (#15463008)

  decent chance it's worth 100x by the time you retire.
At this point it almost seems like bitcoin is a cult.

It's a piece of software running a database/blockchain. There's now several hundred blockchain service networks up and running.

Why should anyone pay more than a few cents for a bitcoin or database-backed-blockchain-token where the supply was produced for minimal effort and is now being artificially inflated by unregulated exchanges suckering in people who don't know what they're buying?

Maybe blockchains will someday be efficent, but as they stand the only proven use case is speculation due to psychological assumption that the supply is limited .

  In economics, the Gini coefficient is the standard measure 
  of how inequitable a society is. This is tricky to 
  determine for Bitcoin, as it's not quiet a "society" in 
  the Gini sense, one person may have multiple addresses and 
  many addresses have been used only once or a few times. 
  (The commonly-cited figure of 0.88 is based on one small 
  exchange in 2011.) However, a Citigroup analysis from 
  early 2014 notes: "47 individuals hold about 30 percent, 
  another 900 a further 20 percent, the next 10,000 about 
  25% and another million about 20%"; and distribution 
  "looks much like the distribution of wealth in North Korea 
  and makes China's and even the US' wealth distribution 
  look like that of a workers' paradise

  Dorit Ron and Adi Shamir found in a 2012 study that only 
  22% of then-existing Bitcoins were in circulation at all, 
  there were a total of 75 active users or businesses with 
  any kind of volume, one (unidentified) user owned a 
  quarter of all Bitcoins in existence, and one large owner 
  was trying to hide their pile by moving it around in 
  thousands of smaller transactions. (Shamir is one of the 
  most renowned cryptographers in the world and the "S" in 
  "RSA encryption")"
[1] via https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=davidgerard
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by wyldfire on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:37PM (#15463103)
Inequity doesn't mean much wrt Bitcoin IMO.

However, it's good data regarding how much of the currency being held is put to use and how much is just hold-and-pray/FOMO.

As a supporter of bitcoin, I recognize that there's so little backing its value. Once some piece of devastating news would be released, it could send bitcoin tumbling all the way down to zero. There would not necessarily be any residual value to the currency if the news were bad enough. The only thing I could imagine that would obliterate all the value might be "algo for PoW is vulnerable to trivial double-spend, no software workaround available". The next most significant thing would be "global consensus among UN member states to outlaw cryptocurrency transactions, transactions to carry criminal penalties including imprisonment." But then it would just slip to merely black market use, which would likely preserve some residual value.

Bitcoin's power/lure is: invulnerability+deflationary+novelty+utility+ubiquity.

Invulnerability: its value will fluctuate as demand cycles, but the network will continue to churn out new transactions regardless.

Deflationary: yes, as everyone says this is a bad quality for a currency, but it helps explain why people keep investing.

Novelty: there's some things that you can do with bitcoin that you can't/couldn't ever do before.

Utility: it's a truly useful technology and there's innovation going on to find new ways to leverage it.

Ubiquity: why bitcoin and not other cryptocoins? Its marketing/brand/ubiquity is its strength. Admittedly it is not irresistibly strong. Support for some other coin could easily overtake it (and that's why there's some investors hedging on other coins).

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by 659087 on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:49PM (#15463139)
> Novelty: there's some things that you can do with bitcoin that you can't/couldn't ever do before.

You can do the same things with a variety of other cryptocurrencies for a fraction of the cost, though.. and it will usually be a lot faster, too.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by randomThoughts9 on Friday October 13, 2017 @08:21AM (#15464942)
> Inequity doesn't mean much wrt Bitcoin IMO.

I'm sorry, but you can't brush that subject off with a single sentence. It's a huge problem. If you want a real currency, that is.

You might hope that the free market will fix this problem, but I have my doubts. The current whales don't have a real incentive to sell.

And if Bitcoin would reach its goal, we would have some new, anonymous and untouchable overlords that would make the feudal ones look like amateurs. No thanks.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by wyldfire on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:24AM (#15465361)
> I'm sorry, but you can't brush that subject off with a single sentence. It's a huge problem.

Sorry, I suppose I should've been clearer. Inequity is a problem, but not for bitcoin. I meant that since it doesn't (and might never) represent overall wealth that it's not very interesting how some slice of the population holds it.

> If you want a real currency, that is.

I'm okay with Bitcoin being something unlike any previous currency. I'm okay with bitcoin only being used by rich people, only being used by poor people, only being used by technophiles, or only being used by technophobes.

> And if Bitcoin would reach its goal

I doubt there's any consensus on whatever goal that might be. Bitcoin [supporters] like the idea of adoption, but I don't think many would assume it would eliminate the use or need for fiat currencies.

> ... we would have some new, anonymous and untouchable overlords that would make the feudal ones look like amateurs. No thanks.

I don't know how we got here. There's never been a more enabling technology. If in this odd analogy the "serfs" decide they don't like bitcoin they can use some-other-coin-that-they-prefer.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by craftyguy on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:56PM (#15463169)
> there's so little backing its value

What exactly is backing its value? Is it just marketing fluff?

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by andrewtbham on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:08AM (#15463211)
The inherent value of any currency is based on these 5 factors.

1 scarcity - limit on supply, difficult to counterfeit

2 fungible - all coins are the same

3 divisibility - 1 / 100 millionth of a bitcoin is smallest unit. crypto is high divisible, an important feature if there is deflation.

4 durability - dollar bills get old and torn up. whereas, computers and drives crash and you can lose your private key.

5 transferability - cash and gold require physical transfer. banking: ACH, credit cards, wire transfers have fees. bitcoin: global internet transferability. transaction time should be less than 10 minutes. fees were low initially but have been going up due to network congestion.

However they main thing that makes a currency valuable is willingness to exchange it for goods and services. That is the useful part about the bitcoin "bubble." It serves to increase adoption of it's usage.

edit: formatting and note about losing keys mention in comment below

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by colordrops on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:11AM (#15463223)
Regarding durability, because of cryptocurrency's distributed nature, a better parallel would be lost private keys and transactions that destroy coins rather than drive crashes.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by rublev on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:04AM (#15463196)
the USD, public perception and its subsequent psychology, and mining. or did i read the question wrong.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by craftyguy on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:35AM (#15463303)
The USD is backing bitcoin? How so?
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by Beejeepa on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:22PM (#15463052)
Bitcoin is being monetized. It holds far more value than its intrinsic value, just as a $100 US paper bill is worth far more than it costs to create.

A blockchain is not a database - you're just trolling.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by vasilipupkin on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:18PM (#15463043)
why should anyone pay more than 50-100 bucks for a shiny metal that carries no value beyond the fact that it's shiny and maybe is used in some industries? why should that metal cost 1000 plus dollars an ounce?
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by will_brown on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:55PM (#15463160)
For starters the shiny metal does, as you acknowledge, have industrial application. Moreover, you wouldn’t be able to post that comment nor would I be posting this comment without that shiny metal in our respective devices.

Additionally the shiny metal is limited in supply, that is there is a finite amount and you nor I are going to make anymore of it. As OP suggested bitcoin is manmade, it may be artificially limited (21M coins) but anyone can just create a new blockchain and/or cryptocoin for next to nothing.

I myself learned how to create smart contracts and deploy them on the Ethereum blockchain and I have created YC Coin; Reddit Coin; Facebook Coin and Instagram Coin. For just a few fractions of an Ethereum Coin I have decentralized karma and likes across networks with billions of users combined. Separately, I have created tokens backed by real life assets allowing users to buy/sell/trade interest in actual assets on exchanges.

I’ve even begun offering coin/token creation as a service so anyone or any business who wants it’s own community cryptocoin can have one. Now I don’t question why my coins/tokens are worth less than bitcoin, but at the end of the day “why is bitcoin worth more than other coins when they are both artificially finite stores of value functioning on immutable blockchain technologies, providing the same functions” is a fair question. Once precious metals can be reproduced for next to nothing, like blockchains and cryptocoins, then it’s fair to challenge their worth until then I think it’s easy to argue their worth as a store of value.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by nickonline on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:25AM (#15463271)
> anyone can just create a new blockchain and/or cryptocoin for next to nothing

... and I can take my shiny metal (gold) and mould it into a replica spanish gold ingot, it doesn't mean my gold bar is worth the same as the original in fact it's worth substantially less.

By creating YC Coin, Reddit Coin or Facebook coin you're not increasing the supply of the original Bitcoin you're creating a replica of the original.

In fact, by creating the vast array of coins you have you're actually demonstrating why none of them have value, they're a dime a dozen and none of them are the original bitcoin. But a 'KarmaCoin' adopted by those websites might have substantially more value (but good luck with that!).

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by will_brown on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:52AM (#15463352)
I don’t think creating new community cryptocoins is creating a replica of bitcoin (that’s like saying bitcoin was a replica of earlier cryptocurrencies right?). Obviously I’m not suggesting I’m creating a greater supply of bitcoin, just separate coins entirely with idenical practical functions (stores of value on blockchain traceable on exchanges). But you’ve given me an idea, I think I will create a bitcoin replica (called bitcoin, with 21 million coins) and deploy them on the Ethereum blockchain. People either forget or just don’t know bitcoin itself was given away for free to start, the first recorded purchase was a publicity stunt of 2 papa John pizzas for 10,000 bitcoin, that’s just under $60M today...I think it’s ok to ask why there is such a jump in value, when the functionality is reproducible for nearly nothing right?

As to your point, I agree any of the coins I mentioned would gain value if adopted by the websites, but that’s the beauty of decentralizing, users don’t need permission. And if there was any doubt about the underlying concept I believe Kik just launched its own community cryptocoin, creating 10 trillion and raised $100M on an ICO selling roughly 40%.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by colordrops on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:13AM (#15463231)
The price of the shiny metal does not match the industrial usage of it though. Why isn't a store of value considered useful in itself? Don't we gain something by moving away from trading with wampum and sheep?
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by will_brown on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:33AM (#15463296)
I’m not sure it’s fair to conclude the price doesn’t match its industrial usage, just based on being an integral component of computers and smart phones, using another electrical conductor while possible would lead to reduced lifetimes of devices...so what is the fair value of something that in other words extends the lifetimes of these devices?

Also, I’d be the first person to acknowledge and promote the function of bitcoin and blockchain technologies too, but I think it’s ok to support bitcoin/blockchain while simultaneously questioning how the monetary value of bitcoin is derived and drawing a distinction between value/worth/function of precious metals and cryptocurrencies. It’s like smart contracts, I’m the first to support and promote self executing programs hosted on blockchains, but I’m also the first to challenge when people market them as functioning outside the legal system or in other ways inconsistent with reality.

I say if you can, own a little of all of them, sheep too. After all gold is only worth something until it’s worth less than a can of soup.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by joosters on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:25AM (#15463273)
Price can be based both on utility and speculation, so shiny metals may have higher prices than their industrial usage would imply. It doesn’t have to be just one or the other.

A store of value is, of course, useful, but that doesn’t mean that it should gain a high price. Is there a shortage of value storage, or are there already plenty of ways to store value?

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by colordrops on Friday October 13, 2017 @01:06AM (#15463397)
Doesn't bitcoin match that definition? It is not only a store of value but also provides forms of utility that wasn't there before distributed consensus was solved.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by nosuchthing on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:03AM (#15463555)
It doesn't store value, it's a network protocol and a database.

It's not rare, and the supply was minted for substantially minimal energy/capital input. Satoshi designed an economic model for Bitcoin to reward himself and the small pool of users who ran the software. Anyone buying a Bitcoin for more than it cost to produce it in 2009-2014 is hoping they'll find a greater fool to sell their coin to.

Is litecoin a store of value? Monero a store of value too? Maybe 42 coin is more valuable because there's only 42 instead of "21 million"... oops the network forked and now there's twice... wait four times... wait the network forked again... oh dear.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by oreo81 on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:47PM (#15468287)
Are you saying a database doesn't have value? For many companies, their database is their largest asset.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by colordrops on Friday October 13, 2017 @07:03AM (#15464571)
> It doesn't store value, it's a network protocol and a database. It's not rare, and the supply was minted for substantially minimal energy/capital input.

I don't agree with any of that.

I suppose the internet is really just a bunch of 1s and 0s and not of any value either using that reasoning.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by coupdetaco on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:53AM (#15463353)
Because the government buys stuff with them and you can pay your taxes with them.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by lukasb on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:38PM (#15463110)
you need it to pay taxes.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by stale2002 on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:46PM (#15463133)
No, you don't need yellow pieces of rock to pay your taxes.

Gold is quite a good comparison to bitcoin. Gold has very little "intrinsic" value and isn't backed up by the government.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by AndrewKemendo on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:21AM (#15463257)
Despite what you hear, don't look for rationality in human action.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by jlgaddis on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:05AM (#15463198)
In 2011, I bought $11K (USD) worth of BTC (at $7 each), but I got uneasy when it went over $30 and sold it all. :/
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by mrhappyunhappy on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:38AM (#15463316)
Ouch. Welcome to the club.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by QAPereo on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:01PM (#15463002)
My 70 year old, cant-even-use-a-Mac uncle wants in! I don’t know what to tell him, paper wallet in a vault? How does a guy who can’t even use an iPad buy bitcoins?!
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by leereeves on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:18PM (#15463046)
> My 70 year old, cant-even-use-a-Mac uncle wants in!

That reminds me of a story from the dot-com boom, about an investor who knew it was time to get out when a grocery store clerk asked how to get in.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by mrhappyunhappy on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:40AM (#15463322)
I’m also skeptical and feel a huge bubble popping eventually, ruining many lives in the process. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by QAPereo on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:05AM (#15466328)
The sad fact is that some people will look at a highly volatile investment and dip in, others will commit their life savings. You really can’t help the latter, and the former doesn’t need help.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by imustbeevil on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:17PM (#15463042)
Same way anyone else does, give someone else your real money and believe what they give you is more valuable.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by sergers on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:28PM (#15463071)
Find a Bitcoin ATM. https://coinatmradar.com

My friend who is all over Bitcoin, yet is technology inept, used one of these

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by QAPereo on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:24AM (#15463268)
Smart, this is going to appeal to him, thanks. Thanks as well to the others who offered lots of good advice.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by atomical on Friday October 13, 2017 @08:51AM (#15465117)
Bitcoin and technology inept? Sounds dangerous.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by AlexCoventry on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:28PM (#15463073)
Give him a loaded Ledger for Christmas.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by STRiDEX on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:40PM (#15463116)
coinbase makes it simple. I think they'll be able to hold onto it as well.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by goseeastarwar on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:45PM (#15463130)
This sounds rational until you realize this is the only reason the price continues to rise.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by Beejeepa on Friday October 13, 2017 @09:54AM (#15465650)
There are fundamental flaws to paper money, and the global reserve currency: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

This is why Bitcoin is winning.

Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by goseeastarwar on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:29PM (#15468145)
Winning what precisely? Making early speculators wealthy beyond their wildest dreams, causing extreme FOMO, while in no way effecting world policy? I’ll pass on that train wreck.
Re:Global Demand for Bitcoin Shifts Wildly in Response to Re... by gtcode on Thursday October 12, 2017 @11:39PM (#15463115)
No, if you are taking the long view, then Dollar Cost Averaging or other strategies are recommended. This eliminates the risks involved with trying to chase the trend.