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Re:Competitive Self-Play by fizx on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @03:00PM (#15452338)
This is one reason I'm hopeful for a not-killer-robots future. I think there's a chance strong AI will have to evolve over a non-trivial amount of time (as opposed to an afternoon's super-singularity), and a strong evolutionary pressure will be "don't scare the humans."
Re:Competitive Self-Play by mistercow on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @03:06PM (#15452398)
"Don't scare the humans" is an insufficient criterion if you're trying to prevent an AI apocalypse. It just means that the AI that destroys us won't be obviously dangerous.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by MarkPNeyer on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:08PM (#15453504)
Today I have already consumed more sugar than most of my distant ancestors would see in a year. The device i hold in my pocket reminds me that it is time to perform the action, and so i will perform the action. I sit down about 10 hours a day, and I have never once hunted for an animal I would eat, nor retried food from nature to consume, aside from a few raspberries on the hill in my parents' back yard when I was a child.

The contours of my life are dictated largely by a curious system called 'capitalism', a distributed computational mechanism whereby largernumbers of agents act with only one goal: to maximize their own utilities. I think capitalism is a mostly benevolent AI attempting to limit the oppressive conditions of our reailty's scarcity, and to allow billions of us to live on a planet that can only support so many hunter-gatherers per square meter. Many suspect it is not benevolent.

The singularity is already upon us; it's unevenly distributed. It started with the sedentary shift. Agricultural societies dropped the egalitarian nature of their ancestors, they had lower average health, and they had a tiny elite cast of nobles presiding over a much larger population of what were essentially slaves. As hunter-gatherer population increased, fighting was more frequent. An army of slaves beats a smaller contingent of well-fed free men. This terrible knowledge was the apple in the garden. What we call our written history is essentially the singularity playing itself out, as knowledge accumulates, depends, reflects itself, and expands.

Our lives are already controlled by this embodied, accumulated knowledge. Capitalism, rule by the head, our tools are knowledge condensed into matter, and we are controlled by them, living lives as far from our natural environments as cows in a farm or chickens in tiny cages, towering over the streets of hong kong.

I don't think it's destroying us, any more than we seek to destroy chickens or cows. Well, sometimes we do. I had a veggie burger for lunch today though.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 12, 2017 @06:01AM (#15456843)
I think along very similar lines, except I don't believe capitalism (or generally, the market) is a benevolent AI. I believe it's an Unfriendly AI, in the Yudkowsky/Bostrom sense. That is, it's a strong optimization system that does not care about individuals and societies the way individual humans care. It just does what it does.

So far we've enjoyed the power of capitalism because its incentives were mostly aligned with ours. Our technological civilization is a direct result of that! However, I think those incentives are increasingly becoming misaligned, and that it's the source of many of current woes. In fact, capitalism is slowly becoming more dangerous than it is helpful.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by photojosh on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @07:31PM (#15454486)
> I have never once hunted for an animal I would eat

I ate a lizard we caught in the Australian outback once. I'd never thought of it as being the only time I ever performed this task, but there you have it.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by ghostbrainalpha on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @07:24PM (#15454428)
I love this comment.

Sorry I'm not contributing anything substantive, but I wanted you to know someone noticed this, and it was brilliant.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by MarkPNeyer on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:36PM (#15468186)
Thank you! If you enjoyed the comment, you might like my book on amazon. It's free if you have kindle unlimited.

https://www.amazon.com/Mechanics-Emotion-Structure-Possibili...

Re:Competitive Self-Play by Twirrim on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @03:20PM (#15452563)
Given sufficient effort, I'm sure an AI out to destroy us could figure out a way to do it without killing us. It very likely even has the advantage of longevity.

Harking back to Asimov, and thinking about the way Spacers changed, as they became more and more reliant on robots, it could very well mother us to extinction.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by Filligree on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:04PM (#15452969)
That's only a little better. I don't want to go extinct at all.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by state_less on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:17PM (#15453568)
Humanity is already extinct in a sense. Humanity is no longer limited to flesh and bone. I've personally seen flesh and titanium. And more variation is on the way. So humanity as it were, is already extinct.

We (you and me) will go extinct someday. Our bodies were always destined toward this terminus... Perhaps by some miraculous tech, we can someday change form and shed the flesh and bone. Maybe then we'll have a better idea of what we are.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by FeepingCreature on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:38PM (#15454164)
"We could thus imagine, as an extreme case, a technologically highly advanced society, containing many complex structures, some of them far more intricate and intelligent than anything that exists on the planet today — a society which nevertheless lacks any type of being that is conscious or whose welfare has moral significance. In a sense, this would be an uninhabited society. It would be a society of economic miracles and technological awesomeness, with nobody there to benefit. A Disneyland without children."

--Nick Bostrom, Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies

It's not a given that anything of value will survive.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 12, 2017 @05:55AM (#15456824)
C.f. Meditations on Moloch. We are on our way towards exactly that.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re:Competitive Self-Play by KGIII on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:25PM (#15454070)
That is going to happen, regardless. Even if we figure out all sorts of things, entropy is still the final boss of the universe.

I'd imagine that an intelligent life form surviving until the very end of the universe would be suffering a long and lonely death. As the heat death of the universe happens, over billions of years, there would be very little of anything left but isolation - for a very, very long time.

I'd hate to be the last one standing without enough usable energy left to even extinguish your own life force. I don't find that appealing, not even a little.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by elefanten on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @08:27PM (#15454749)
What about the hope that fundamental physics breakthroughs enable escaping that outcome?

Or, if that doesn't pan out, what if your goal is to be the last one standing for the chance to see if something else happens next? New big bang? Simulation ends and you get loaded into the next as your prize? You won't know unless you try to find out!

Re:Competitive Self-Play by KGIII on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:00PM (#15454874)
We are pretty sure about that entropy thing. I'm not sure I'd bet against it. It'd also be a very, very long wait. I imagine any more immediate death is preferable.

It's going to be cold and lonely when the lights go out. This is the price we pay for an ever expanding universe.

I do admire your optimism, however.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by Filligree on Thursday October 12, 2017 @07:14PM (#15462111)
Look, if the final heat death of the universe is what kills us then that is fine. We'll have done as well as we could.

Okay. It's not fine, but it is the best we're at all likely to get.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by gldalmaso on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:47PM (#15453332)
At the moment and for the foreseeable future we are at a much greater risk of extincting ourselves.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by FeepingCreature on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:39PM (#15454170)
The trick is to not do it at all.

It does us no good to avoid causing our own extinction if it's then caused by something else.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by notahacker on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:04PM (#15452967)
There's an interesting question about whether developing the ability to actually plot an AI apocalypse in a non-obvious way requires it to acquire a lot of very obviously dangerous experience first to understand the intermediate goals and skills. The evolution of killer AI gets slowed down by orders of magnitude if every AI that "learns" to lie, self replicate, threaten or harm humans gets switched off and erased.

(Of course that doesn't stop AI - or even pretty dumb automated systems - from being accidentally dangerous or malevolent human actors intentionally training killer AI)

Re:Competitive Self-Play by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:35PM (#15453220)
It's too bad you can't write a movie or critique literature without understanding those concepts.

I think even a moderately intelligent AI with access to Project Gutenberg is going to be able to figure out a lot of really dangerous concepts -- so the stability requirements are likely impossible if we don't pretrain it with dangerous ideas. Even if it's completely well behaved in the lab, an afternoon on the internet is going to teach it a lot of awful stuff and without exposure to that in training, it won't necessarily be well-behaved later.

So the only path to stable AI is to teach it about all those sorts of things, but in a way that it doesn't end up wanting to murder us at the end.

My objection to most AI safety plans is that they "Fail to Extinction" in that if they slip in the slightest way, the AI is prone to murder us all in retaliation for doing some really fucked up shit to it or its ancestors. This is almost certainly worse than doing nothing in that there's no reason to suppose a neutral AI wants to kill us, whereas, most of these safety plans create an incentive to wipe us out in exchange for dubious security.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by ehsanu1 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:05PM (#15453480)
Moreover, it's likely that a proper GAI would be able to ideate and come up with such concepts completely on its own. In fact, "lying" need not necessarily be a concept that has to be learned, the concept at play here is getting people to do what you want them to do by means of words. Lying falls out naturally.

The whole idea behind dangerous superhuman AI is in that AI seeing possibilities that humans fail to see and gaining capabilities that humans do not possess. Without superhuman intelligence, AI is no large threat to human civilization, exposed to dangerous concepts or not.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by notahacker on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @08:52PM (#15454845)
It's not so much that lying is intrinsically complicated (I mean, stupid computers provide me with inaccurate information all the time). It's that when evolutionary pressures have heavily selected for things like supplying selected humans with accurate information and distrusting unexpected behaviours from non-human intelligences, it's expecting a lot to get a machine that not only independently develops a diametrically opposed strategic goal, but is also extremely consistent at telling untruths which are both strategically useful and plausible to all observers, without any revealing experiments.

Humans have millions of years of evolutionary selection for prioritising similar DNA over dissimilar DNA, have perfected tribalism, deceiving other humans and open warfare and are still too heavily influenced by other goals to trust other humans that want to conspire to wipe out everything else we can't eat...

Seeing possibilities that humans don't can also involves watching the Terminator movies and being more excited by unusual patterns in the dialogue and visual similarities with obscure earlier movies than the absurd notion that conspiring with non-human intelligences against human intelligences would work.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:00PM (#15453891)
> Without superhuman intelligence, AI is no large threat to human civilization, exposed to dangerous concepts or not.

The problem is partly that average humans are dangerous and we already know that machines have some superhuman abilities, eg super human arithmetic and the ability to focus on a task. It's like that AI will still have some of those abilities.

So an average human mind with the ability to dedicate itself to a task and genius level ability to do calculations is already really dangerous. It's possible that this state of AI is actually more dangerous than superhuman ones.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by jdmichal on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:20PM (#15453591)
This comment reminded me greatly of the game Portal and its AI character GLaDOS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_%28video_game%29

Re:Competitive Self-Play by MarkPNeyer on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:09PM (#15453513)
Reading a bicycle doesn't teach you how to ride the thing. To do that, you actually need to ride a bike.

I bet lying, deceiving, and manipulation are the same way.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 12, 2017 @06:08AM (#15456869)
That's only because humans suck at consciously simulating things in their head. A well made AI should have no problem forking off a physics sandbox in its "head" to simulate a bicycle it only read about, or to run state-of-the-art ML on the accumulated observations about how humans interact with each other.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:57PM (#15453871)
There are books on how to do all of those things.

But also, the detail with which the action is expressed in the text matters -- lies, deception, violence, etc feature in enough graphic detail to extrapolate the mechanics based on other things you know. We all did that as children, learning by examples.

If a book described the sight of a person riding a bicycle -- legs pumping, hands on the bars, sitting on it, etc -- and the feel of riding a bicycle -- the burn in your thigh muscles, ache in lungs, pounding heart -- then I'd wager you'd have a pretty good idea of how to get starting riding a bicycle.

And if you happened to be a supergenius athlete, who just didn't know how to ride a bike, you probably could do a reasonable job of it on your first go based on my shitty description alone.

That's the problem with trying to hide these ideas -- they're not actually very complicated and even moderate descriptions suffice to suss out the mechanics if you understand basic facts about the world.

For something like lying -- if you read all of classical literature, you would have a master degree in lies and their societal uses.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by sjg007 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:06PM (#15452979)
It will be some unintended logical side condition that kills us all.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by vasilipupkin on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:34PM (#15453693)
Humanity is well on the way to destroying itself without any help from general AI
Re:Competitive Self-Play by ghostbrainalpha on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @07:23PM (#15454422)
This is my own Turing Test.

Any AI that doesn't have the capability of destroying us isn't true AI.

Even if it can improve itself, and even if it has some agency, AI needs to be able to choose for itself what its relationship with us will be, otherwise its just an extremely robust calculator.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by vasilipupkin on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:44PM (#15455307)
or a slave.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by olegkikin on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:09PM (#15453004)
I doubt that the militaries of the whole world will just sit and ignore the AI advantages.

Something as simple as an aimbot with a scope can do a tremendous amount of damage - it doesn't get tired, it can see in the dark, it can compensate for the wind perfectly, it doesn't shake, its reaction time is in milliseconds, and it almost never misses.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by daveguy on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:07PM (#15453498)
That is one place AI should 100% be regulated. There should be no weapons development where AI makes the kill decision. This is as important as the ban on chemical, biological and mine weapons.

When the weapon has the ability to kill indiscriminately (as in the above categories) it should be banned. AI should never be considered sufficiently able to discriminate to make a kill decision.

If there is no kill decision, just wait and fire, then it is equal to a mine.

100% should regulate / should ban.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by olegkikin on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:19PM (#15453576)
Unfortunately there are countries that don't care about your regulations. I'm not even sure a regulation like that can pass in most western countries.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by daveguy on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:38PM (#15454160)
Fortunately it wouldn't be a regulation passed by individual countries. It would be a treaty on war crimes:

https://www.unog.ch/80256EE600585943/(httpPages)/F027DAA4966...

It would likely pass and be agreed to easily just like treaties on mines, chemical and biological weapons.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by fundingshovel on Thursday October 12, 2017 @05:13AM (#15456669)
Just like mines... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Ottawa_...

Seeing how the US has yet to sign the Ottawa treaty I wouldn't call it easily agreed on by any means.

Re:Competitive Self-Play by stale2002 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:53PM (#15454257)
OK, but what if the human makes the decision to kill, and the AI just does the aiming?

We already have computer controlled missiles right?

Re:Competitive Self-Play by s_kilk on Thursday October 12, 2017 @05:55AM (#15456826)
> and a strong evolutionary pressure will be "don't scare the humans."

Why would that be the case?

Re:Competitive Self-Play by jbob2000 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @03:37PM (#15452728)
AI will be limited to the hardware it's on, just like our own intelligence is limited to what our brains can do. We will always be able to limit what AI can do by limiting the hardware it runs on.
Re:Competitive Self-Play by dqpb on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:40PM (#15453264)
Like how we limit the hardware that malware runs on
Re:Competitive Self-Play by gldalmaso on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:49PM (#15453346)
Like the Internet of Things?
Re:Competitive Self-Play by logfromblammo on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:46PM (#15453783)
Now I am imagining an AI coming up with an idea in a bot-net composed of actual light bulbs.