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Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by jadbox on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:52PM (#15444822)
I bet you that the next generation of Intel processors will have patched this workaround from working, and maybe go as far removing the ability to kill IME unless you use some kind of rotating encryption dongle. Unfortunately for consumers, there's no way to escape this as even AMD has their own IME.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by kbenson on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:35PM (#15445111)
I'm pretty sure at this point what Intel has done is create a way to bypass everyones encryption schemes by hijacking the CPU, which might be prosecutable under DMCA anti-circumvention laws...
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by cl289 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @09:18PM (#15446619)
If I were in charge of collecting encrypted data at the NSA, I would make sure that whatever keys were used by the CPU's AES instruction set would be copied and saved using the CPU firmware. Then that data could be sent out with the ME, or simply stored in case that computer was ever an object of interest. In that way, anything encrypted (using hardware) could be decrypted. Seems like it would be malpractice by the NSA not to collect AES keys at the hardware level.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by cyphar on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:18PM (#15446324)
Not sure that's correct. If you disable ME then DRM that depends on it just won't work. So it would be like saying that a power button is a DRM circumvention tool.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by kbenson on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @11:32PM (#15447081)
I'm saying that the ME, by nature of the access to the CPU, memory and IO that it has, is likely capably of circumventing almost all software encryption run on the CPU through surreptitious gathering of information as the system runs encryption/decryption routines. Whether Intel intended to or not, they've built the mother of all circumvention tools, and circumvention is specifically not allowed in the DMCA.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by cyphar on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:54AM (#15448262)
Intel ME is used as a component of DRM (see PAVP), which is what I was referring to. But this is quite an odd argument, by that definition your CPU would be a circumvention measure. And while you can use a CPU to circumvent DRM, just having a CPU isn't enough.

Also, a normal user of a computer cannot do whatever they like with Intel ME, so its the least useful circumvention measure I've ever heard of. GDB is infinitely better.

Not to mention that most DRM depends on the encryption being done outside of the computer's CPU. HDMI's DRM relies on the local computer not being aware of the contents of the stream and the monitor itself does the decryption with burned-in keys.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by laurentdc on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:58PM (#15444867)
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by craftyguy on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:01PM (#15444889)
That has been around for years, and requires that the CPU + motherboard are paired during manufacturing so the CPU can be fused appropriately.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Kwastie on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:35PM (#15445114)
interestingly enough some implementations are broken because of buggy UEFI (AMI) https://embedi.com/blog/bypassing-intel-boot-guard
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by revelation on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:35PM (#15445503)
No surprise, I mean verifying the integrity of the BIOS is like PlayStation 1 level of crypto chainloading madness. A great scheme that will always fail because whatever software you are verifying will be imperfect. The chance that software produced by companies whose "day job" is putting flashing LEDs and DC-DC converter heatsinks on reference designs is zero.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Chaebixi on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:07PM (#15444934)
> I bet you that the next generation of Intel processors will have patched this workaround from working, and maybe go as far removing the ability to kill IME unless you use some kind of rotating encryption dongle. Unfortunately for consumers, there's no way to escape this as even AMD has their own IME.

What would be the justification for Intel going through all that trouble to do that (besides a conspiratorial "the NSA needs it to spy on everyone")?

The impression I've gotten, to this point, is that Intel just doesn't care enough about people in the general public who are bothered by the IME to publicly support ways to disable it. Governments had enough buying-power to get Intel to implement an unsupported workaround, but I'm not convinced Intel has a motivation to make accessing that workaround hard.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by tree_of_item on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:10PM (#15444964)
> besides a conspiratorial "the NSA needs it to spy on everyone"

Besides the real reason? I dunno.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by throw2016 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @07:58AM (#15448994)
Some people seem to be in denial about NSA. The body of evidence about the ties to private industry via programs like Prism and others is overwhelming for anyone with the barest curiosity.

Why would Intel go through all the trouble of creating ME or the broke AMD PSP at around the same time? This is hardwired in silicon, is not cheap to do and definitely needs huge business justification to initiate, implement and maintain. What's the business case?

Are they charging a premium for these features and disabling it for everyone else as they would if it was actually a 'premium' feature? Are they giving an option to those who don't want it to disable it without ado?

No, they are pushing it on everyone. That itself compromises ME. How do we know there is no NSL in effect forcing both Intel and AMD to implement this. Nobody does. But it is an intrusive piece of tech that has complete authority over your PC.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by MaxfordAndSons on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @05:42AM (#15448447)
It's absurd to suggest that the NSA is the guiding hand behind the IME. For one thing, the enterprise use cases for the thing are quite obvious, so it's not like the NSA would have had to compel Intel to design and implement it in the first place. And if there weren't a demand for it, there's no way the US government could COMPEL them to make the business decision to undertake a massive change to their core product. Nor could they realistically bribe them to do it, not because the government lacks access to funds to make a sufficient large hypothetical bribe, but because Intel is a huge publicly traded multinational. How many employees do you think worked on the IME? How much money do you think it cost? Maybe the NSA has access to some unaccountable billions to throw; would Intel be able to explain that windfall in its books? Perhaps. But how many people would have to keep quiet in perpetuity about all of this? It just keeps stretching believability the more you think about it, like all conspiracy theories that involve more than a handful of actors.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Ajedi32 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:23PM (#15445423)
Do you have any specific evidence that the NSA is directly involved in pushing implementation of IME for the purposes of espionage? That's an extraordinary claim; the mere existence of the NSA isn't sufficient evidence that it's true.

Yes, the NSA exists. Yes, it's their job to spy on people. And yes, it's perfectly valid to include mass surveillance in your threat model. But these constant, uncorroborated claims that the NSA boogeyman is hiding behind every rock and tree are starting to become quite tiresome.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by rantanplan on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:30PM (#15445474)
> the NSA boogeyman is hiding behind every rock and tree are starting to become quite tiresome.

Yeah indeed, they have backdoor-ed every ISP, nation, router, HDD, what-have-you in existence and these people keep telling boogeyman tales.

Tsk tsk tsk. How tiresome.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Ajedi32 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:12AM (#15447447)
> they have backdoor-ed every ISP, nation, router, HDD, what-have-you in existence

This is exactly the kind of hyperbolic nonsense I'm talking about. You can't claim that every HDD in existence has an NSA-installed backdoor installed in it without providing any evidence.

If the NSA's capabilities were nearly as extensive as you're claiming, the US wouldn't need to bother maintaining a military. They could just remotely command all of North Korea's computers to shut themselves off, then sit back and wait around for their surrender.

I'm not saying mass surveillance isn't a problem, or even that the NSA doesn't have a backdoor installed in IME (I certainly don't have evidence to the contrary); just that people need to stop exaggerating the threat, or making claims about the NSA having compromised any specific system without providing any evidence to back those claims up.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by roblabla on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:14AM (#15448098)
Remember when the NSA crippled a standardized CSPRNG ? http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-rsa/exclu...

Remember when the US shut down NK's internet ? https://gizmodo.com/so-who-shut-down-north-koreas-internet-1...

Remember when the NSA was revealed to have a malware that could infect hard drives, being potentially undetectable ? https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ypwkwk/the-nsas-u...

Remember PRISM ? How about stuxnet, and the other couple of viruses that are almost surely the NSA's.

Sure, those are not backdoors installed by the OEM, rather they are malware that the NSA can use to infect (lots of) systems. But let's not kid ourselves, the NSA does have a ridiculous amount of power, and we have lots of evidence of it.

At this point I'd be rather surprised if the NSA haven't hacked my fridge yet somehow.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Ajedi32 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:34AM (#15449577)
And I agree, those are some pretty impressive feats. Whenever your threat model includes state actors, it's probably not a bad idea to be paranoid. Let's not carry that paranoia to ridiculous extremes though.

_Could_ the NSA have the ability to utilize IME somehow as a means to infect computers? Certainly. Do they _actually_ have that capability? We have no idea. Same goes for your motherboard's firmware, your hard drive's hardware, and any number of other possible vectors. They _could_ be compromised somehow, yes, but let's not claim that any specific motherboard firmware, HDD model, or CPU processor brand definitely _is_ compromised without evidence.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by rantanplan on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:05AM (#15448071)
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/17/kaspersky_labs_equa...

There is an equivalent article from Ars technica, if "theregister" isn't to your liking.

As for the evidence on routers and Internet infrastructure, you should pay more attention to leaks of state-sponsored tools, like the equation group leaks and the CIA one.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Ajedi32 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:39AM (#15449629)
"possibly tens of thousands of Windows computers" is not anywhere near the same thing as "every HDD in existence".
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by mmjaa on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:43PM (#15445565)
You know whats tiresome? Fighting for control over your own hardware.

Do you want to live in a free society or not? Because this is not acceptable to a free society.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Ajedi32 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:16AM (#15447459)
I don't see how that's related to my comment. I'm not discussing whether IME is a good idea or not, I'm just objecting to the unsubstantiated claim that the NSA is involved in pushing it.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by mmjaa on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:24AM (#15449980)
Actually: It is quite well substantiated that the NSA has a mandate to usurp, and has factually usurped all technology in its purview, for its purposes - i.e. American information technology corporations, manufacturers, and so on, are bent to its will - it is treasonous for Intel to allow IME to be completely disabled, cf., the Yahoo case against NSA, etc.

The fact of secrecy around this issue is the only thing to be doubted. Its no secret to non-Americans/concerned citizens; if you choose to continue to be ignorant, I choose to set you the challenge: go and find out for yourself just how bad it really is with the NSA. (It is atrocious.)

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by roenxi on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:22PM (#15445823)
The idea of the NSA working with a major components supplier isn't an extraordinary claim. Intel will have a major presence in all sorts data centers of interest to the NSA.

If I were an American and believed in what the NSA was doing, I'd want to know what they were doing with their budget if they didn't at least try to get a hardware back door into Intel CPUs. Why waste budget on finding exploits in patchable software when they can go straight to the silicon?

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by quickben on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:35PM (#15445504)
That is a very naive view.

The Intel IME is far different than 'rock and tree' to an organization of 40k employees and $10B budget tasked with bypassing stuff like the IME.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by ksk on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:13PM (#15445768)
Yeah, most likely, IME was developed for a completely legitimate purpose of administering PCs without special software.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by kuschku on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:09PM (#15444952)
> What would be the justification for Intel going through all that trouble to do that (besides a conspiratorial "the NSA needs it to spy on everyone")?

Well, some companies and users use the IME to enable theft-prevention technology. If you can circumvent the IME, you can easily steal a laptop and disable this theft-prevention technology.

If that’s worth building an ever more closed walled garden is another question.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by julian_1 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:49PM (#15445209)
> besides a conspiratorial "the NSA needs it to spy on everyone"

Isn't the ability to spy on everyone the official mandate of the NSA?

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by Ajedi32 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:03PM (#15445296)
Pretty much. That's the NSA's mandate though, not Intel's.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by forgotAgain on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:17PM (#15445385)
They don't have a need to spy on everyone, just a compulsion to.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by lurker12390879 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:57AM (#15450276)
The HAP bit will probably at the least remain since it's part of the NIST assured computer program.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by amelius on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:55PM (#15444843)
Wouldn't it be possible to isolate the processor from the network interface? E.g. by using a network card that requires special access codes? I imagine you could build such network interface using an FPGA module.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by openasocket on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:03PM (#15444914)
It already can't communicate with a non-Intel network card IIRC. It would need some kind of driver, and it's not like it can use the OS' network card driver, unless the IME is automagically able to use Windows, OSX, and Linux drivers.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by amelius on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:18PM (#15445016)
Are you sure? I suppose any network card on the PCI bus can be accessed by the CPU in principle. And leave it to the people of the NSA to install clever software in the IME module that doesn't disrupt the OS's communication with the network card.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by icegreentea2 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:29PM (#15445073)
So I guess it comes down to what you think the point of the ME is. If its for what Intel claims, then having the ME have to access the NIC through the OS is useless - the whole point is to bypass the OS, so you can manipulate the computer regardless of its state (as long as its plugged in anyways).

If you were worried about NSA spyware that tunnels through your OS... well, then you may as well just be worried about NSA spyware in your NIC.

Because in the end, even if the ME was directly connected to the NIC, it still needs to know how to talk to the NIC (thus why NICs have drivers...). When you use an Intel NIC, the ME knows how to talk to it, and everything is hunky dorey. In practice, Intel could probably build a database of common non-Intel NICs and load all of their drivers into the ME. But really, if we assume that the ME exists for business reasons, then its obvious why Intel will just keep it all as Intel. They are nominally selling something that is advantageous to large organizations, and would like said large organizations to buy as much Intel gear as possible. Said large organizations believe that ME provides sufficient value to go with Intel NICs instead of other NICs.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by daxorid on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:43PM (#15445163)
> If its for what Intel claims

If it's for what Intel claims, then they would trivially offer an option for the customer to disable it. Hell, they could even make it a selling point for higher-margin chips like Xeon.

Does ME have business purposes? Sure. But their staunch refusal to allow disabling by nongovernmental customers does not pass the sniff test. There is clearly some other, non-business reason for it.

> then you may as well just be worried about NSA spyware in your NIC

If you own my NIC but not my CPU, I can encrypt my traffic and blind you.

If you own my CPU (especially my AES-NI ISA), my options are more limited. Much higher-value target.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by gruez on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:22PM (#15445412)
>If you own my CPU (especially my AES-NI ISA), my options are more limited. Much higher-value target.

>especially my AES-NI ISA

why aes cpus specifically? you're free to not use aes instructions. besides, if you own the cpu, you load whatever shellcode you want, no need to backdoor the aes instruction.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:32PM (#15445480)
> you're free to not use aes instructions.

good luck getting a system compiled that does not use them at all. Might be possible with gentoo and the right configuration as it compiles everything, but with a dominantly binary distro like Ubuntu or Debian you're SOL.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by daxorid on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:38PM (#15445523)
Especially, not specifically.

I was just saying my options are more limited, and the options for someone unwilling to recompile their own software is very severely limited.

But even if I'm running, say, software-only Salsa20 with all compiler optimizations off, if my CPU is still owned, my keys are still at risk of silent compromise.

The only real defense is to ascertain the processing limitations of IME and then choose your crypto primitives/implementation for both processing and memory hardness that exceeds the ability of the IME's lower transistor count and/or clock speed to keep up with.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by 1001101 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:59PM (#15445271)
How about a foreign (to the US) power? Imagine the kind of damage they could do if they were sitting on a 0-day. North Korea, for example, could steal financial data to fund their nuclear program, or manipulate critical infrastructure. As a system designer, I'd want to mitigate that kind of threat, and I don't know if I have the knobs and switches available to me to do that with this design.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by amelius on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:35PM (#15445116)
Hence my suggestion to build our own NIC using an FPGA board.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by tinus_hn on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:38PM (#15445911)
If the board supports PXE boot, the bios or UEFI can access the network. No magic required.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by openasocket on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:58PM (#15446001)
Hmmm, this stumped me for a while. Your argument makes complete sense, but then why do I need drivers for my OS to access the NIC, when it should be able to use the same API exposed to BIOS? So I looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment

It's fairly light on details, but my interpretation is that for a NIC to support PXE boot it has to have firmware that exposes a standardized API so that the boot loader can functions as a DHCP client and a TFTP client. As far as I can tell, the NIC doesn't have to provide some standardized method for general access, just those two things. The NIC could even have a completely different, completely separate API that it expects the OS to use, and just has some firmware that acts as a shim to expose to the boot loader the PXE client API.

Assuming this is true, Intel ME could access the NIC using the PXE boot API, but this only gives it the ability to act as a DHCP client and TFTP client, not arbitrary networking operations.

I could be completely wrong about that, though. This is, at best, an educated guess.

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by tinus_hn on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @07:14PM (#15446069)
The bios and uefi obviously can also access the hard disk, otherwise you can’t boot. The OS still has its own driver though. That’s because (at least the BIOS version) is optimized for a small code size and a limited environment, while in the OS you want speed and features.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by comatose on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @10:20PM (#15446854)
pxe booting loads a lightweight os, ime can access the networking later when the full os is loaded but has generic or specific drivers for low level net access. ime doesn't use pxe though, afaik
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by julian_1 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:28PM (#15445061)
The thing is running Minix OS, so it's not inconceivable to configure non-intrusive drivers for third-party NICs sitting on the pci bus.
Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by DannyB2 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:20PM (#15445023)
> . . . and maybe go as far removing the ability to kill IME unless you use some kind of rotating encryption dongle.

Dear Intel, please PLEASE only use a solid state dongle with no moving parts! :-)

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by leggomylibro on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:58PM (#15445261)
Not yet, but does SiFive's RISCV offerings have any sort of 'management engine'?

If ARM continues to supplant x86, and an open ISA like RISCV starts to nip at ARM's heels...

Re:Disabling the Intel Management Engine by monocasa on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:32PM (#15445882)
Sort of? They do have a simpler core off to the side for SoC management on their newer 64bit design.

You're going to be hard pressed to find a moderately complex SoC without something like that. At a bare minimum, reset and power state sequencing is complex enough to offload to a microcontroller style core these days. The iMX6 is the biggest, most reent SoC I an think of without that.