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Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by yaantc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:32AM (#15401179)
That's a very one-sided pro-Qualcomm piece.

The big issue with Qualcomm IP practice is that they don't charge IPR on the modem function, but over the whole device. So put the same modem in a cheap phone, or in an expensive laptop, and the IPR will be very different. This is really charging IPR on a lot of value completely unrelated to the modem.

Historically, the cellular/3GPP world was very phone centric. The specs were for a phone, and the chipset was really the core of the phone. At that time, charging cellular IPR on the device embedding the chipset was reasonable: the device was just a phone, with all the intelligence coming from the chipset.

We're obviously no longer living in such a world. But Qualcomm keeps this practice, as it's very profitable for them and their dominant position let them do it (so far). Apple is mad at this, as most of the value of a smartphone is outside of the modem part nowadays (even more for a PC). Other device makers hate it too, but don't have the muscle to go against QCOM and can't afford alienating them. Europe is looking into it too, and will issue a recommendation that cellular IPR is charge only on the modem subsystem, not the including device (basically, Apple position). It will start as a recommendation, but could become law later on.

So it looks like it's QCOM against everybody else. Considering the money involved, I'm sure that QCOM has a pretty fat budget to push their angle. Hello Bloomberg ;)

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by hajile on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:08PM (#15402020)
That pricing argument is worthless when you start talking about percentages. 5% of a $500 device is quite a lot while 5% of some $25 IoT device is not very much.

Qualcomm spends around 5.5 Billion every year in R&D or 23% of net sales. For comparison, apple spends a paltry 2.2% of its net sales on R&D. Dry up Qualcomm's net sales and the R&D will dry up too.

All the most crucial wireless patents (the really fundamental ones) have already expired. Why doesn't Apple design another, competing system around Qualcomm's patents and license it for free? The answer is that it takes a decade and tens of Billions of dollars.

Apple has the money, but it's cheaper to work the courts over so they pay less. If Apple were the ones who built 4G, you can be very sure they'd be charging at least as much as Qualcomm.

Remember, Apple thought the look of their iphone was worth $40 per device when suing Samsung, but now they think the actual technology to make it work isn't even worth $10 per device. If Qualcomm were making the same profit margins (relative to R&D) as Apple, they'd have to go from $10 per device to $100.

I'm not a Qualcomm fan (or any big corporation for that matter), but if we were making a list of price gouging companies, I think there are a lot of companies that should be getting fined and regulated (especially Apple) before Qualcomm.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by rgbrenner on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:32PM (#15402259)
All the most crucial wireless patents have already expired

The 2G patents (that Qualcomm owned 90% of) have expired.. but who uses that anymore?

Qualcomm also owns 13% of the patents used for LTE (which they agreed to license under FRAND terms).. it's those patents they are using to create a monopoly on LTE chips.

First they refuse to license their patents to other manufacturers who want to produce chips.. then they say to handset manufacturers, they won't sell you chips unless you agree to pay a royalty on every handset (even if it does not contain Qualcomm chips).

They own the same percentage of patents as Erickson, but they produce 4x the revenue from IP licensing (+ the revenue from chipset sales).

Edit: if you believe the 13% of LTE patents Qualcomm owns are worth $10... that would be $77 for all of the LTE standard essential patents at the same rate. So we are not far off from your $100 Apple-like price in your post.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by abritinthebay on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:13PM (#15404135)
> First they refuse to license their patents to other manufacturers who want to produce chips

Isn't that a FRAND violation?

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by mercutio2 on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:16PM (#15406140)
IANAL, but yes, sure looks like a FRAND violation. And that is the lawsuit in a nutshell!
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by ksec on Thursday October 05, 2017 @05:48AM (#15407859)
Yes one has to wonder why Ericsson and Nokia dont charges more.

But Ericsson and Nokia do charges a lot for their Mobile Carrier Infrastructure and Equipment, where as Qualcomm dont have part in that industry. And one reason why Huawei is winning because Huawei has been offering similar equipment for much cheaper price.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by tooltalk on Thursday October 05, 2017 @12:22PM (#15410383)
@rgbrenner:

First, Qualcomm chipset also comes with IPs owned by Samsung and a slew of other wireless patent holders who crossed-licensed theirs with Qualcomm. Samsung and LG, along with Qualcomm, are the largest contributors of LTE SEP's and make up the bulk of LTE patents (KFTC likewise found that Qualcomm used its monopolistic position to force them to cross-license their patents for almost nothing in return). So no. Even if you stack everything, it won't be anywhere close to your nonsensical $77.

Second, under ETSI (see section 1.11), Qualcomm has the right to refuse the granting of licenses.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by dpark on Thursday October 05, 2017 @03:35PM (#15411974)
Do you think that just maybe you should stop quoting the ETSI IPR policy as if it defines the legal obligations of patent holders? It doesn’t, and I already pointed out that it doesn’t, and your own references elsewhere point out that it doesn’t.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by yaantc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:24PM (#15402158)
Please see my reply @danjoc. I don't care much about Apple really. The manufacturing world is pretty hard and penny pinching, the practice of charging for value unrelated to one's IP hurts small manufacturers who can't stand to a QCOM. I really don't mind QCOM charging whatever they want on their modem, to sustain their R&D. But I don't agree on their charging unrelated parts just because they can. Hope this clarifies my previous comment.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by model_m_warrior on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:12PM (#15402050)
You're the guy who hates big corporations? I'm the guy who wants to end world hunger.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by danjoc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:45PM (#15401793)
>So put the same modem in a cheap phone, or in an expensive laptop, and the IPR will be very different. This is really charging IPR on a lot of value completely unrelated to the modem.

Pot, meet kettle. Apple charges 30% at the App store, whether I want to sell an app for $1 or $1000.

Also, if Apple wanted, they could package the modem separately. Sell it for $50. Again, this mirrors Apple's advice to Samsung to build triangle phones since Apple patented a rectangle with rounded corners. Suddenly, clunky workarounds are bad. Quelle suprise.

I really can't feel sorry for Apple. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Must be nice to be an Apple IP lawyer. They win no matter what happens.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by yaantc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:15PM (#15402078)
This story is very Apple vs. QCOM, but I don't care much about this angle really. What I care about is the underlying question: is it ok to charge IPR on value added way outside the scope of the given IP? I don't think so. QCOM does so. Apple is against. So I'm just sympathetic with Apple position in this strong debate and that's it (I'm not even an Apple user).

And I don't feel sorry for Apple. I feel sorry for all the other small manufacturer and companies suffering from this situation, but that are too small to make things move on their own. Apple and Samsung may not have the purest of interest in this debate, but if they move things in what I believe is the right direction, I'll be happy.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by somenewacc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:35PM (#15402291)
Why can't we let the markets regulate themselves?

Or, if we're dictating what's a fair price.. can we at least force Intel, AMD and other relevant parties to license X86 patents?

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by scarface74 on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:50PM (#15402480)
The difference is that for cellular phones to be effective, they all must use the same standard. Companies agree that for their inventions to be part of the standard, they will license their patents to all comers at FRAND. The patent holders are basically granted a monopoly by the standard setters in exchange for fair licensing terms.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by CamTin on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:51PM (#15402505)
> Why can't we let the markets regulate themselves?

Because this is a synthetic market the government explicitly created and maintained through patent legislation.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by danjoc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:06PM (#15402704)
>Apple is against.

In this case. Apple has a history of demanding extortionate patent licensing fees for incredibly obvious ideas.

You seem to be missing the bigger picture. The attack on Qualcomm is against the company, not the patents. Qualcomm snapdragons are the only competitive ARM chips against Apple's A series.

Apple is trying to destroy Qualcomm and monopolize the market. That's not going to help the little guys you claim to care so much about.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by admiralpumpkin on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:24PM (#15402925)
You're not addressing the poster's point. Does makes sense for Apple to pay a % of total price of phone for one decreasingly relevant part?

Apple A series tech is destroying the Qualcomm's snapdragons just fine without any need for legalities.

Are you suggesting that Qualcomm is using its licensing fees to support an unprofitable Snapdragons? Overall a confusing argument.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by danjoc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:36PM (#15404369)
>You're not addressing the poster's point.

I already addressed it. The poster is repeating the point. That doesn't make it more valid.

>Apple A series tech is destroying the Qualcomm's snapdragons just fine without any need for legalities.

You might want to review world wide market share numbers before you try to defend that statement.

>Are you suggesting that Qualcomm is using its licensing fees to support an unprofitable Snapdragons?

I'm suggesting Apple is using litigation expense as an avenue to destroy the business of their competitor, again. Apple has much deeper pockets than Qualcomm. It's very simple math.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by ianamartin on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:35PM (#15405339)
I might be able to believe that if Apple were trying to sell the A series chips and compete head-to-head with Qualcomm.

But Apple is not doing that. It is keeping that competitive advantage in house.

Whether you like Apple or not, you have to understand their business model before you criticize it. Apple doesn’t care about competing with component manufacturers. Not even a little bit.

Apple learned this the hard way in the 90s. Don’t compete on price, and don’t compete on specs. Apple happens to be winning on specs right now. The snapdragon procs are not even close to the A-series in performance. But that wasn’t always the case.

This is about maximizing profit. Not about putting anyone out of business.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by threeseed on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:51PM (#15403256)
> Apple has a history of demanding extortionate patent licensing fees for incredibly obvious ideas

When ? I am only aware of one situation in their history i.e. Android where Apple has sought an ongoing royalty.

> Apple is trying to destroy Qualcomm and monopolize the market

What ? Apple is never going to sell their CPUs to their competitors. They are a product company not a components vendor so not sure what market you are referring to. Also Intel sells modem components as well.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by pwinnski on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:05PM (#15403429)
Has Apple sought a royalty on Android? My belief has been that Apple refused to license any of their patents. They've sued Samsung not to extract royalties, but to stop them infringing Apple's patents, full-stop.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by danjoc on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:41PM (#15404426)
>> Apple is trying to destroy Qualcomm and monopolize the market

>What ? Apple is never going to sell their CPUs to their competitors.

Who said Apple would sell CPUs to competitors? You don't monopolize a market by having competitors. Not real ones anyway.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by TheSoftwareGuy on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:27PM (#15403674)
>I really can't feel sorry for Apple.

And that's exactly where you're looking at this wrong. it's not just Apple that loses out because of this, it's consumer's at large.

Likewise, the same thing happens with apps, consumers must pay more money for apps which will have less revenue to invest in themselves.

That's the thing about unfair economic practices, it never just hurts the people directly involved, but also the massive amount of people indirectly involved.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by ballenf on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:58PM (#15403342)
Apple pays $10 on a $1k phone due to rebates (before the dispute started). Without rebates the cost would be $50. Apple will actually benefit less from a win here than the small phone manufacturer.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by simonh on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:33PM (#15404343)
>Pot, meet kettle…

Not really equivalent though. Apple advertises and makes the whole app available on the App Store, delivers the whole app from their infrastructure, manages upgrades and back end services for the whole app, provide access to millions of customers and handle the financial transaction for the full cost of the app. It seems reasonable they get a percentage of the whole app’s price.

Meanwhile Qualcomm only own a few patents on a tiny sliver of the circuitry of one component for one function of the device.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by Aloha on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:03PM (#15401965)
You don't have to sell your app in the Apple ecosystem - its very hard to build a modern mobile device without Qualcomm IP.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by zaroth on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:42PM (#15403831)
The stronger argument I think is that Apple did not get its App Store put into a global standard which can't be avoided in exchange for promising to let people sells apps on it under FRAND terms.

Apple can do whatever it wants on its own App Store. It's their device and they aren't a monopoly nor is it anti-competitive for them to charge a high fee on their own store.

But Qualcomm IP is part of the LTE standard on the express condition that they will license their share of LTE mandatory features fairly. I don't think it's fair to take a percentage cut of the whole package price for an IP license that's part of a global standard.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by Aloha on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @05:28PM (#15404867)
Yeah, that was the unstated subtext of my post.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by mcculley on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:04PM (#15402672)
>they don't charge IPR on the modem function, but over the whole device.

Is this why there's no option for an LTE modem in a MacBook Pro?

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by greglindahl on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:21PM (#15402882)
It's much more cost-effective to have a mobile hotspot, because then you're only paying the Qualcomm tax on a minimal thing.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by mcculley on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:01PM (#15403372)
I get that. I was wondering why Dell ships laptops with an LTE modem and Apple ships every mobile device except a MacBook with an LTE modem. It makes sense if it is some stupid negotiation tactic. I was wondering why they would not put something in so obvious to the benefit of users.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by pwinnski on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:10PM (#15403485)
I think the key there is that Dell ships with an LTE modem, a separate device with a separate price. They pay royalties to Qualcomm on the price of the modem.

Apple would never (for some value of never) ship a laptop with an external device like that. The LTE is either baked into the laptop (at which point Qualcomm would demand a % of the entire laptop's sale price), or it's not included at all. They choose not at all.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by mcculley on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:57PM (#15403969)
Dell, HP, and Lenovo ship laptops with a built-in LTE modem.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by wernercd on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:37PM (#15404383)
"Built in" as soldered unto the mother boards? Or "Build in" as in an expansion card added to an expansion card slot (even if "internally")?

I assume the difference between those two would be the difference between price?

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by mcculley on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:47PM (#15406224)
I have no idea. I would only care how well integrated it is with the operating system. But yes, maybe this is some hardware designed against accounting constraints.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by greglindahl on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:53PM (#15404538)
I haven't looked in a recent laptop, but a while ago there was a standard for a single interior expansion card.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by tooltalk on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:54PM (#15404540)
No.

Qualcomm's patented features do drive market demand (or add value) for mobile devices, including that of Apple's. That's why Qualcomm can ask a percentage of the entire device.

This is not so with MacBook Pro -- unless Qualcomm can prove it otherwise.

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by mchafkin on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:40AM (#15401260)
did you read the story? we discuss the very disagreement you reference.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by kartD on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:50AM (#15401376)
From the guidelines: Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by ksk on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:36PM (#15402294)
The guidelines are indeed a nice idea. Its a pity a tiny minority seems to care for or follow them. IMO Using them to selectively criticize is worse than not having them in the first place.
Re:Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part by Retric on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:06PM (#15401493)
"Qualcomm’s big innovation" is followed by several exaggerations and falsehoods. So, saying you mention something is meaningless when you include that amount of bias.

Read up on Token ring vs Ethernet to get some understanding of the history in this area.