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Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by thechao on Thursday September 28, 2017 @05:09PM (#15360743)
I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone, which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at.

Also, I also think we should have a carbon recapture tax added to gasoline, but no one I know really wants to pay an additional tax of 7-10$/gallon.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by Someone on Thursday September 28, 2017 @05:48PM (#15361038)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_producer_responsibili..., which, in the EU, led to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni..., which puts the responsibility on manufacturers, rather than sellers. That takes care of that Amazon problem.

As always in the EU, the exact effect of these differs by country (EU directives describe goals, and leave the means to get there to member countries)

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by 5555624 on Thursday September 28, 2017 @06:01PM (#15361132)
Amazon wouldn't need a brick-and-mortar operation. Just log into your account and print out a postpaid shipping label. They keep your purchase history; so, you could look up the order and click a link next to the item. There are far more Post Offices than any shops they could make a deal with.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by Teever on Thursday September 28, 2017 @06:51PM (#15361443)
Wait, does Amazon ship the junk back to China too and then China disassembles it and ships the elements back to their respective holes in the ground?

It seems like a better idea would be to just have Amazon give you a voucher for the recycling fees in your local community.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by amichal on Thursday September 28, 2017 @07:02PM (#15361508)
Most "Recycled" electronics are sent back to china at least in part

Edit: summary at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_China

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by seanmcdirmid on Friday September 29, 2017 @10:01AM (#15365312)
China is trying to shut this game down because it is bad for their own environment.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by amichal on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:10PM (#15368224)
This is good. It also appears that a larger share of US e-waste is actually handled in the US then I remembered (its been trending up since the 1990s i think). I have no idea of the numbers but environmental regulations be equal (which they are not but we can one day they are) this seems more efficient to my brain.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by seanmcdirmid on Friday September 29, 2017 @04:37PM (#15368950)
Actually, that is more about rare earth elements being recovered, ever since the Chinese supply scare a few years ago (which is also related to the environment as rare earth processing is incredibly dirty if done cheaply). Anyways, there is a lot more effort to recycle and re-use these elements for economic reasons.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by Teever on Thursday September 28, 2017 @11:05PM (#15362459)
Sure but it seems a little inefficient to send them individually is my point.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by icebraining on Friday September 29, 2017 @01:46AM (#15363011)
You never ship them individually, you use containers. And it's probably quite efficient: the shipping boats have to return to China anyway to get more stuff.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by jdietrich on Friday September 29, 2017 @05:59AM (#15363987)
It's basically free.

There's far more stuff coming from China to the west than vice-versa. A ship can't travel empty, but needs to be ballasted with an appropriate weight of cargo. If there isn't enough booked cargo on the return leg to China, they'll make up the weight with scrap metal or rubble.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by Teever on Friday September 29, 2017 @02:31PM (#15367814)
I'm referring to the shipping of the broken goods to amazon individually. That's the part I'm critical of.

Sure, send them back to China, I don't care, it just seems silly that we would all just mail our broken junk back one piece at a time to AMazon who then puts it in a container and sends it to China.

Better to take it to alocal recycling facility for them to send it en masse. Have Amazon give you a voucher to handle the recycling fee.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by icebraining on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:24PM (#15368327)
Trucks coming from the Amazon warehouse also have to come back.

Still, Amazon just gifted me an item when I tried to return it since I ordered it by mistake (and I was honest on the form). I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to avoid recycling returns too.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by thomastjeffery on Friday September 29, 2017 @10:28AM (#15365549)
> Also, I also think we should have a carbon recapture tax added to gasoline

That can't work for any country that has "country".

In the US, the vast majority of goods are delivered using trucks that burn diesel.

You can't have a gas tax without a diesel tax. Everyone would just switch over.

If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything, and that's not okay for any economy.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by vkou on Friday September 29, 2017 @11:13AM (#15365987)
> If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything, and that's not okay for any economy.

Why? The purpose of the carbon tax is to capture the negative externality of carbon pollution, and to encourage more energy-efficient industries. Not all parts of the economy use equal amounts of energy, and we should encourage the energy-efficient ones.

I burn carbon when I drive my car to work. I burn much less carbon when I take the bus to work. We want to encourage the latter - carbon taxes let the market do this encouragement. The alternative is doing so by government fiat.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by thomastjeffery on Friday September 29, 2017 @12:04PM (#15366481)
> I burn much less carbon when I take the bus to work.

I understand that. It's the obvious reasoning behind a gas tax.

My entire point is that there are also other effects.

If gas prices raise significantly, then the price of everything - groceries, medication, clothing, cleaning supplies, solar panels, everything - raises, meaning simple things that everyone relies on suddenly become unaffordable to low-wage workers, so their employers suddenly need to raise profits to accommodate the price hike, and raise wages for the bulk of their employees, or (more likely) simply fail, resulting in a significant unemployment increase.

You can't just magically fix climate change by putting the poor out of work, nor should you.

> encourage more energy-efficient industries.

This can be done with much more reasonable methods. Don't forget that transportation is not the only significant source of carbon emissions. The best legislative efforts we can make are to support clean energy (nuclear, wind, solar).

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by logfromblammo on Friday September 29, 2017 @01:17PM (#15367143)
I'm running some code through the profiler right now. I'm working on improving that function that is using 17% of CPU, rather than the dozens clocking in at less than 1%.

If I can get that 17% function to run in 94% of the time, that is a greater gain from less effort than making any of those <1% functions run in 50% of the time.

The same principle applies to air pollution. Focus on the container ships burning bunker oil and the power plants burning coal first. Personal transportation using internal combustion engines is one of those 1% things, and even then, just taxing the gasoline won't help all that much.

As parent mentioned, it will also stifle the economic activity that could allow ordinary people to afford capital investments like at-home solar energy systems. And while one presumes that a "carbon tax" on gasoline fuel should be used to combat air pollution elsewhere, that is not necessarily how it will be spent.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by jogjayr on Friday September 29, 2017 @04:46PM (#15369041)
> that is not necessarily how it will be spent.

British Columbia has a revenue-neutral carbon tax [1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia_carbon_tax

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by thomastjeffery on Friday September 29, 2017 @02:53PM (#15368057)
> that is not necessarily how it will be spent.

Especially in the US, where we are likely to raise the defense budget from $500 billion to $700 billion per year.

Makes me think about how much carbon is released for "defense".

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by fragmede on Sunday October 01, 2017 @11:26PM (#15381523)
"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

-Thirty Ninth President of the United States of America Ronald Reagan.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by GhostVII on Friday September 29, 2017 @11:16AM (#15366002)
> If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything, and that's not okay for any economy.

Why not, we already tax everything as it is right now? And lots of places have carbon taxes, it works fine.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by thomastjeffery on Friday September 29, 2017 @12:10PM (#15366546)
Because everyone would have to suddenly react.

Businesses that rely on low wage workers suddenly have two major problems:

1. They have to find more profit to accommodate shipping expenses

2. They have to pay their workers more

Both of those problems are incredibly difficult to some, and both of them together are deadly to business.

A gas tax would significantly harm the livelihood of poor hard working people.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by dclowd9901 on Friday September 29, 2017 @01:09AM (#15362850)
Tax on gasoline like that would only affect the poorest of citizens. Charge it on shares of gasoline producing companies and car companies so their share holders scream at them to move to less carbon-y energy creation mechanisms.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by kuschku on Friday September 29, 2017 @06:06AM (#15364019)
Not really, we have exactly those gasoline prices in Germany and Denmark, and it's actually quite okay.

The poor just take transit or bike.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by opencl on Friday September 29, 2017 @07:37AM (#15364400)
The problem with the US is that outside of a handful of the biggest cities, transit is extremely lacking and the roads aren't bike-friendly at all. It's very difficult to hold down a job without access to a car, especially low wage jobs like retail that change the schedule around on short notice all the time and are often outside the operating hours of transit. You can also get a used car for around $1000, insurance can be had for $30/month, and gas is cheap so owning a car isn't nearly as expensive as some countries. I still drive a car I bought 5 years ago for $1500, it's over 20 years old now but runs fine.

Even some of the big cities (like LA) have woefully lacking transit and everyone just sits in gridlocked traffic for multiple hours every day.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by Silhouette on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:14PM (#15378744)
While everything you wrote may be true, the US still seems to be exceptionally bad by international standards. We have a lot of rural communities here in the UK as well, where people also need private transport because the public alternatives are lacking. But our vehicles are a fraction of the size (and have a fraction of the fuel consumption) of some of the giant monstrosities that seems to be much more common in the US, and so even though our fuel prices are much higher (almost entirely due to higher taxes), people living in rural communities still manage to get around. The same is true across much of Europe.

While running a car may be cheap in financial terms in the US, environmentally and in terms of scarce natural resources it is anything but, and at some point the US is going to have to deal with the social acceptability of one person driving an enormous vehicle for long distances many times per week or within our lifetimes there are going to be serious problems.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by jdavis703 on Friday September 29, 2017 @01:56AM (#15363054)
The poorest citizens don't own cars.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by gjjrfcbugxbhf on Friday September 29, 2017 @02:16AM (#15363146)
It does depend on where you live. In US they probably do. In EU countries they probably don't.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by thomastjeffery on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:33AM (#15363447)
But they get their groceries from stores that deliver goods via trucks.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by closeparen on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:11AM (#15376655)
The poorest citizens certainly don't own the most extravagant of all luxury items, homes near (decent) transit.

A metro's most car-dependent are its working poor, who need to live the furthest away from the downtown core to afford housing.

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by walterstucco on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:55AM (#15363515)
Actually they are the only one owning them because they need them

They live outside the cities where housing is more affordable but there's no public transport

Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by icebraining on Friday September 29, 2017 @01:48AM (#15363024)
The end result would be the same, they would just pass the costs to the consumer.
Re:A “right to repair” movement tools up by isolli on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:29AM (#15363434)