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Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by sacheendra on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @02:59AM (#15345469)
What is the point of a Linux based console?

Traditional consoles had fixed hardware which could be exploited through vendor specific APIs. If this is just going to run games programmed with OpenGL, this is not different from any other Linux PC.

Given the introduction of APIs like Vulkan which bings the programmability of PCs even closer to consoles, I don't see a use case.

The only market I can think of the niche of Atari fans.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by nippples on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:50AM (#15345972)
> What is the point of a Linux based console?

Let's break it down

> What is the point of a console?

Very predictable hardware specs & setup.

> What is the point of the console being Linux-based?

Reduction of brand-new OS development costs; potentially zero need for writing drivers depending on hardware setup; very extensive presence of compilers / interpreters / libraries that can be freely usable out of the box.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Feniks on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:37AM (#15346176)
Too bad Linux still doesn't play nice with most games. SteamOS was a failure.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by merlijn_s on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @07:28AM (#15346690)
Roughly 1/3 of the steam library runs on Linux. Valve continues to update SteamOS, and they are still heavily involved in creating Linux drivers and middleware. Every week new games are ported, new frameworks are released with Linux support and new Linux dev game tools are created.

SteamOS succeeded in forcing Microsoft to clear up its act, and this is the main reason for Valve's investment. Their continued investment is to continue to make sure that they have a plan B. They are doing a lot of behind-the-scenes work to make the Linux gaming stack amazing. This looks "failed" from the outside because they aren't pushing the platform heavily, but it is actually a lot more beneficial that doing a big marketing push before the platform is ready.

The interesting thing with a platform like Linux is that it's not dependent on one big revenue stream to survive. Because of this, it doesn't matter if it takes years to get massive adoption because it's not burning a hole in the pocket of a company. If xbox was in the same position linux was in, you would be correct in saying that it failed, because anything less than 30% market share means gigantic losses for Microsoft which would lead to axing xbox.

PS: Atari's games run fine on Linux. Their retro emulator runs on Linux. They seem to know what they're doing.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by legohead on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @01:48PM (#15350364)
Less than 1% of Steam users use linux. [1] It's a failure.

[1] http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=combined

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by loup-vaillant on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @06:17PM (#15352838)
Bad metric. Also: https://www.pcworld.com/article/3045249/linux/linux-gaming-i...

Valve doesn't really care how many users are running Linux right now —they still have their Windows revenue. What they do care about is how many users would switch to Linux if Valve was for some reason forced to drop Windows support altogether (like, Microsoft goes Apple on their users and mandates an app store). That number may be much higher.

You'd also have to keep in mind what's keeping users to Windows. From where I stand, exclusive titles play a big role. Linux has no exclusive title to speak of. Why would it, that market is way too small for such madness. Windows, understandably has loads. My only reason for still using Windows is a couple titles I can't bring myself to renounce.

Then there are drivers and tooling, but that's just the same kind of network effects, really.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Thursday September 28, 2017 @02:51AM (#15355211)
The same amount that moved from Windows XP to GNU/Linux, because Windows gaming was doomed with DX 10 being Vista/Windows 7 only.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by cat199 on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:29AM (#15347074)
but what about anything that is > 100% of my attention span?
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:30AM (#15347075)
What forced Microsoft to clear up its act, was the feedback at GDC and similar events, nothing to do with SteamOS.

The very fact that Asus and others never really bothered that much to sell Steam Machines, shows how much market relevant it was.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by merlijn_s on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @09:56AM (#15347815)
Valve's announcement that games ran faster on SteamOS had an almost immediate response:

> “A few weeks after this post went out, some very senior developers from Microsoft came by for a discrete visit. They loved our post, because it lit a fire underneath Microsoft's executives to get their act together and keep supporting Direct3D development. (Remember, at this point it was years since the last DirectX SDK release. The DirectX team was on life support.) Linux is obviously extremely influential." [1]

And again, market relevance was not required for SteamOS to succeed. Gabe Newell has been very open about the fact that SteamOS' goal was to keep Microsoft in check and have a plan B for when things go south..

[1] http://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/steam-s-linux-and-opengl-...

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @10:16AM (#15347984)
The Steam hardware/OS survey is a good indication how successful plan B would be.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by WillPostForFood on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @12:14PM (#15349249)
I thought and posted something similar in another Steam/Linux thread. I was corrected by a passionate Linux user, so I'll return the favor. The Steam hardware survey will not appear for Big Picture users, which is what SteamOS will launch into by default, so it gets undercounted.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3045249/linux/linux-gaming-i...

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by hood_syntax on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @11:00AM (#15348421)
Are you implying people wouldn't jump to SteamOS if it met the needs of gamers? If 95% of Steam games ran on it that would be a huge thing. Lots of people don't want to run Windows 10 because of privacy issues (maybe not a huge number, but it's likely a larger portion of gaming enthusiasts fit into that group than the population at large). And is there a better value proposition than free? If it meets your needs and costs nothing, why would you pay for an equivalent product?
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Feniks on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:41PM (#15352115)
Sure everyone would jump to an alternative of Windows.

Sadly every piece of software and hardware since win95 has been made with windows in mind and no alternative has been able to come even close to that.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @02:08PM (#15350562)
You mean the same people that didn't want to use Vista and Windows 7, and would move from Windows XP into GNU/Linux?
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by moepstar on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @03:16PM (#15351297)
Well, i guess you do have a point there - one iteration was worse in terms of privacy than the other, yet the adoption of alternative OSs was very weak.

But they've gone a little too far with Windows 10 - for me at least, of course everyone will have their own "measure" where too much will be too much.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjc50 on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @06:51AM (#15346479)
SteamOS is a "fleet in being", or nuclear deterrent. Its purpose is to make sure that Valve can survive if Windows decided they wanted to "Windows Store" their platform and force every game to pay Microsoft a 30% cut.

Until Microsoft do that, it's not actually very necessary. But it might become necessary at short notice.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by loup-vaillant on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @07:20AM (#15346652)
Did you mean "Too bad most games still don't play nice with Linux"?

If you didn't, what makes game development more difficult on Linux¹, compared to the alternatives²?

[1]: More specifically, mainstream GNU/Linux distributions [2]: Windows and MacOS

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by ido on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:23AM (#15347025)
One thins is that Linux users often have suboptimal graphics drivers installed (probably cause the open source drivers tend to be incomplete/buggy and the official drivers from AMD/nvidia aren't installed by default on most linux distros).

Another is that it's just generally a lot more heterogeneous than windows and mac (lots of different distros with variously up to date libraries, drivers, etc).

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by khedoros1 on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:11PM (#15351833)
> One thing is that Linux users often have suboptimal graphics drivers installed

The same is true on a new install of Windows, though. First stop when the OS is running: Non-Microsoft browser. Second stop: Graphics card vendor site, to replace whichever outdated driver Windows shipped it for the hardware.

I mean, not as bad, usually (outdated official drivers on Windows, versus often-inferior unofficial/Open drivers on Linux).

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by ido on Thursday September 28, 2017 @01:08AM (#15354798)
I usually buy whatever high end option dell sells when buying a new pc and I haven't had to install any drivers on my own in a long time.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:36AM (#15347120)
Lack of GUI tooling at the same level as it is available on Windows, macOS, PS4, XBox and Nintendo.

The game developers culture is based on making money of IP, outsourcing game development tasks, not about sharing the code and making the world a better place.

On commercial platforms, the GPU and OS vendors even fly tech support to AAA studios to work around driver issues.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Feniks on Thursday September 28, 2017 @07:56AM (#15356426)
Actually the onus is on the OS to entice people to code for it.

Developers developers developers as Ballmer once said.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by mmjaa on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:44AM (#15347184)
http://repo.openpandora.org/

^^ this is something no other game console has.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by b3lvedere on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:59PM (#15352723)
The pyra is an awesome device, but also very expensive.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by baldfat on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @11:49AM (#15348998)
I got a ton of games I can play on Linux. Personally a HUGE win.

Just there is not a lot of Linux Desktop users though it appears we are around 3% now.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by nippples on Thursday September 28, 2017 @03:20AM (#15355361)
> Too bad Linux still doesn't play nice with most games. SteamOS was a failure.

It depends heavily on the engine being used or if custom engine on how much the devs have relied on stuff designed to wall your product into windows.

There's like a couple of games out of ~100 I got on Steam that I've had big problems with in Ubuntu. A couple others just needed launch options to prevent the game from guessing settings so wrong I can't even fix those in-game and launch a launcher program where I can tweak those before starting the game.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by kbenson on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @03:05AM (#15345502)
Well, throw steamOS on it and you have a cheap (cheapest?) steam machine. $249 is much more palatable than $400+, and it would likely play quite a few of the hundreds of Humble Bundle games I have in my library.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by sleepychu on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @03:22AM (#15345581)
steam link is probably a better fit for you then
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by deftnerd on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:02AM (#15345729)
My main workstation is powerful enough to play Steam games, and a Steam Link would allow me to stream them to my living room TV. Where that fails is when I have work to do on my desktop and my kids want to play games.

To solve that, I had to build a dedicated living room PC. I didn't go nuts, so it ended up being about $500.

If I could replace that with an handsome Linux powered gaming system for less than $300, then I think it's a no-brainer... especially if it can run third-party marketplaces and apps like Steam or Plex.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by dkersten on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @12:24PM (#15349368)
What does the living room PC get used for?

If just games/movies/music then what was the logic for getting that over a console? (PS4, XBox1, Switch are around the same price point or below) Just curious, not suggesting that a console would have been better.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by eikenberry on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:26AM (#15345844)
Why would you build a living room PC instead of building each child their own Personal Computer? Then they could hook it up to the Link if they wanted as it is their PC.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Fnoord on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:22AM (#15347021)
Because the child's personal computer resides in their room. This means less room (no pun intended) for control over active times, more costs involved because of computers not being shared, and also enforces the child to be excluded from social environment. It is a double edged sword. Both options have their pros and cons, and none is ideal.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by eikenberry on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:50AM (#15363489)
Why would it be in their room. We have all our computers in one room, our family office. A shared, social environment.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by cat199 on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:32AM (#15347098)
You're right.

This seems like a hard problem, esp. since OP is so emphatic that $300 is preferrable to $500. Let me see if I can figgure this out for us both.

1 child x $500 = $500

1-or-more x $500 = $500-or-more

Oh! That must be it! This solution would be more expensive to implement, and therefore, since cost is a factor, this solution would be less preferable!

Glad I took the time to work this one out, I certainly was very confused as well.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by eikenberry on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:51AM (#15363495)
Money isn't always the primary factor.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by jpalomaki on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @10:51AM (#15348343)
I bought Steam Link. To my slight surprise the hardware worked fine and graphics were smooth (in wired LAN).

Where it fell short was the overall experience. Most games are of course not designed for this. In PC you always have the keyboard, there are things that are tweaked through Windows. Also it felt that I had to regularly run to the PC to sort out some issue. Disclaimer: I tested just with few games and at least 6 months ago.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Zardoz84 on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:45AM (#15346200)
The same that running a BSD or Windows based console.... Oh, wait! Playstation & Switch uses BSD and XBox runs a striped down Windows!

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Switch_system_softwar...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software

And add to the mix that Playstation and XBox actually are using PC hardware...

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:54AM (#15346241)
I still haven't seen anything showing the Switch is using a FreeBSD kernel, just that the Switch ships with the licence from the kernel. That's all that any of the English Wikipedia references show, and a copy of that license doesn't prove much.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Retr0spectrum on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @06:01AM (#15346271)
Correct, FreeBSD code is only used in parts of the network stack.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @08:34AM (#15347111)
From what I can tell, that idea came from some HN users' guess when the licence matter was posted here.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Retr0spectrum on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @12:54PM (#15349723)
The Socket service on the switch is called bsd:u. That's a bit of a giveaway. IIRC if you use nmap's fingerprinting feature, it thinks the switch is running FreeBSD (i.e. the switch is definitely using the FreeBSD network stack)

http://switchbrew.org/index.php?title=Sockets_services

http://switchbrew.org/index.php?title=Services_API#Service_L...

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @03:11PM (#15351262)
Thanks, I've brought this up elsewhere and never gotten a reply more substantial than mentioning the licence. Do you have any reason to think that is all they used?
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by beefsack on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @03:17AM (#15345561)
> Atari says it’ll offer a “full PC experience” for your TV

I feel this is a significant part of the appeal.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Feniks on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:53AM (#15346236)
Without Windows?
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Sir_Cmpwn on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @09:49AM (#15347747)
Oh, hush. Linux is perfectly capable of providing a full desktop PC experience. It's a great idea to land hackable Linux PCs in living rooms - most people are going to get everything they need from their web browser and the kids who dig a little further are introduced to the world of open source.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by Feniks on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:45PM (#15352153)
The year of Linux.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by shmerl on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @01:04PM (#15349841)
Why not make it Linux based? Developing a new OS isn't something they want to do I assume. Leveraging Linux and established APIs (Vulkan / OpenGL) and etc. sounds like a pragmatic solution.

"Traditional" consoles used lock-in not because it was good to do, but because they were either too weak and required very close to the hardware APIs (and no portable APIs like that existed), or because vendors were just lock-in inclined.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by nikcub on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @10:07AM (#15347901)
> Traditional consoles had fixed hardware which could be exploited through vendor specific APIs.

Atari know that - they tried it with the Jaguar

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by mtgx on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:32AM (#15346146)
It may (should) use Vulkan, which should give closer to console performance, once developers know to target a specific Vulkan machine.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by la_oveja on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @06:07AM (#15346288)
> If this is just going to run games programmed with OpenGL [...]

dude, we're riding the Vulkan wave now!

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @03:46AM (#15345660)
Cheaper to develop for them as they don't have to develop an console OS from scratch.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by godzillabrennus on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:30AM (#15345865)
Not only that but if they partner with Steam they stand half of a chance at attracting more than Atari nerds who remember the 2600 fondly to purchase these.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @05:17AM (#15346091)
A quick Google search shows that the few surviving shops that still try to sell Steam Machines, do it at the comparable price or higher as Windows gaming rigs.

So not sure if it would generate any considerable profit.

Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by merlijn_s on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @10:01AM (#15347856)
It's not about steam machines, it's about the game catalogue. Steam has 3000+ titles on Linux and the Steam runtime takes away a lot of the pain of developing for Linux.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @10:20AM (#15348013)
A small portion of the games that actually matter to most avid gamers, quantity is not all.
Re:Ataribox will be an open, Linux-based console priced star... by eloisant on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @04:50AM (#15345974)
They can have it open while still have fixed hardware and vendor specific APIs (in addition to open apis commonly found in Linux).