Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?

I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...

The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.

Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation.

Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.

Saying "it's wrong" is meaningless.

There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy.

This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.

Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither

It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise.

This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans.

No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government.

Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?

No, you are missing the elephant in the room.

There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this.

Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as they have always done.

I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse us.

I'm sick of it all.

And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that are into politics.

That's some assumption, considering the main party promoting the secession had their party HQ confiscated for their corruption.

"Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

"Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive)."

No, it WAS. Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

"I'm sick of it all."

More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

Audiencia Nacional does not approve of confronting Spanish president with of the main conspirators detained for illegal funding of their party. [0]

An Hacienda (taxes) expert finding clues about this illegal funding. [1]

Ex president of Castilla la Mancha's regional goverment dies before testifying in a corruption case [2]. There have been lots of deaths of people about to testify in diferent corruption cases.[3]

75% of the money the goverment put to rescue the banks is now considered as lost.[4]

"They report that there are 38% of severely dependent and large dependents without attending"[5]

And some other things that are debatable (and some that are not. I'm not negating that the governing party in Catalonia has been corrupt too, if it were for me lots of current and past politicians should be in jail.

> "Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

> No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

Yes, a way that is completely impossible right now. Specially because it depends on who has majority in the goverment, and those in power use FUD to keep being in power.

>Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

I had to search what FLA is. That is a credit line that can be used by regional goverments [6]. That means it has to be payed back.

Catalonia is the region that most money brings to the table with 18.9%, more than even Madrid with 18.8% (2016)[7] But it's not he one with more investment (12.78% if you run the numbers)[8].

>More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

I didn't want independence, but I now want it, thanks to the words and actions of centralist people and politics. If you are saying that the majority doesn't want it because in 11 september's parade there was only 1 milion people and there are 6.5 milion more that weren't there... that doesn't compute (I wasn't there either).

[0]http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Audiencia-Nacional-Barcenas-...

[1]http://www.publico.es/politica/gurtel-perito-hacienda-confir...

[2]http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/07/59b0fab8ca47418b038b...

[3]http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-muertes-y-suicidios-larga-list...

[4]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/07/59b1092e22601dad19...

[5]http://dependencia.es/denuncian-que-hay-un-38-de-dependiente...

[6]https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fons_de_Liquiditat_Auton%C3%B2...

[7]http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/economia/catalunya-economia-esp...

[8]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/04/58e3...

EDIT:

Sorry, I didn't (and don't) have time to search for links in English. They are all in Spanish but one, that it's in Catalan (but has Spanish and German translation).

If there was any innacuracy in this post I'd rather have conversation than untold negativity.

Nobody knows if they are a majority or not. At least, unless they can vote about it, of course.

And please, don't give me polls.

True, but at the same time, it was the Catalan Government who started the secession process, and they have plenty of corruption to hide too. And if they manage to become an independent country with their own judicial system, then they might get away with all the past corruption. Maybe that's the actual motivation.

The worst is the unspoken tension that this has created between me and my Spanish friends.

I'm quite sad :(

Don't forget PDECAT, for them it is also a smokescreen

A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.

They don't agree with independence, or with having a referendum at all? Just curious, I haven't been following it closely.

When a lot of corruption cases started to arise a few years ago, the local govern party had to ally with a far left separatist organization that demanded the referendum. So here we are.

By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things

> This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.

Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime?

Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?

So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".

This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.

The Spanish Constitution is based in a very broad agreement, from Communists to the Far-Right Wing.

Then that agreement (the Constitution) was voted by all the Spanish People and received an immense support.

See the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referen...

Every major party wanted indivisibility of Spain, including the PCE or Communist Party of Spain.

So please don't try to sell the territorial indivisibility as a right or center-right thing.

My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. I agree that it is a conservative constitution made out of fear, with a flawed electoral system, a king, etc. The same fear that the party in power, lineage of the dictators, uses to address our aging population.

"Mejor malo conocido que bueno por conocer" (Better a known bad than the good that is jet to be known) is the worst Spanish saying.

I am Andalusian and pro-referendum.

Please don't spread misinformation.

You're confusing the referendum for politic reform of 1976 with the constitution of 1978. BOTH were voted in national referendum by free, direct and secret vote.

If you were suggesting that people didn't vote freely because fear, you are wrong.

My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it.

That's OK. There are, in the constitution itself a sort of ways to ammend it. If you have enough votes, you can do mostly everything.

I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.

You are confusing two meanings of the word. There is the meaning of breaking a country for whatever reasons. Like Sudan, or the USSR or Yugoslavia. There is another meaning: the crime of secession that tries to break a country by force and against its legitimate authorities, that often ends in a blood bath.

First meaning is not the same as the second.

The national government is held by PP, a right-wing party where a lot of corruption cases surfaced recently. There is much pressure about this, but the reality is that the prime minister was voted by a majority of parliament, so...

On the other hand, the referendum organizers voted it in an illegitimate regional parlament session. The regional president's party has been also corrupted to the roots. They were trying to hide it all behind all this adventure.

If you look at a map you will understand the reason for why spain wants to hide and prevent a referendum.

Again, if you believe that fantasy is true, is impossible to open your eyes to reality.

Please, point to a reputable source.

The elephant in the room is what I just wrote. A referendum to vote to commit a crime is a crime. And secession is not a walk in the park. Spanish government passivity might have given that impression, but at some moment, it seems to be now, things will start to get very serious.

The follow up argument is the government has the power to amend the constitution but it currently has no interest in doing so. If Catalans want to secede they must first convince their (national) politicians to amend the consitution to make secession legal and then hold a referendum on secession itself.

Is Barcelona people demanding it?

I'm an spanish citizen thereby granted to have free access to all national territory. If just catalan people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other spanish citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in catalonia.

All Spanish people have the right to decide about all the things in Spain, not just a bunch of people.

If some workers had followed the law maybe you would still work for 12 hours and a shitty salary (now that i think... this still aplies now)

Who deprives you from working, living and visiting Catalonia?

I understand this affects Spain as a whole, so after the vote there should be a proper discussion rather than direct secession action (IF that were the result). But this question is regional, the rest of Spain doesn't decide if they want to live in an independent Catalonia state, because they don't live in there.

We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included.

Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal, but are persecuting everyone promoting the referendum, so much for freedom of speech. But anyways, now you get into a criminal trial for making jokes about terrorist actions from 40 years ago against Franco ministers.

I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state, under a federalist republic where we can move forward together. But in the current state of affairs I very much understand the independentist movement. Having a referendum is the only solution long-term and the Spanish goverment just uses legalist excuses to stop it. What they don't say is that precisely they can change the law to allow it!

I would agree that there is some leakage, but it is the exception to the rule. I would not make such a generalization.

>>> Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal

They have suspended the law that would allow the Catalonian goverment promote the referendum, so it is indeed illegal to promote the referendum.

>>> I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state

Me too. I am Andalusian too.

That's a pretty bold statement. Maybe you should provide some evidence.

Now it's even more illegal.

Edit: to the people downvoting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref...