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Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @07:57AM (#15292710)
I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased

There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy.

This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.

Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither

It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise.

This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans.

No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government.

Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?

No, you are missing the elephant in the room.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by JaumeGreen on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:14AM (#15292831)
The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings.

There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this.

Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as they have always done.

I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse us.

I'm sick of it all.

And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that are into politics.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by notspanishflu on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:23AM (#15292904)
"The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings."

That's some assumption, considering the main party promoting the secession had their party HQ confiscated for their corruption.

"Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

"Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive)."

No, it WAS. Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

"I'm sick of it all."

More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by JaumeGreen on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:00AM (#15293233)
While in the process:

Audiencia Nacional does not approve of confronting Spanish president with of the main conspirators detained for illegal funding of their party. [0]

An Hacienda (taxes) expert finding clues about this illegal funding. [1]

Ex president of Castilla la Mancha's regional goverment dies before testifying in a corruption case [2]. There have been lots of deaths of people about to testify in diferent corruption cases.[3]

75% of the money the goverment put to rescue the banks is now considered as lost.[4]

"They report that there are 38% of severely dependent and large dependents without attending"[5]

And some other things that are debatable (and some that are not. I'm not negating that the governing party in Catalonia has been corrupt too, if it were for me lots of current and past politicians should be in jail.

> "Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

> No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

Yes, a way that is completely impossible right now. Specially because it depends on who has majority in the goverment, and those in power use FUD to keep being in power.

>Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

I had to search what FLA is. That is a credit line that can be used by regional goverments [6]. That means it has to be payed back.

Catalonia is the region that most money brings to the table with 18.9%, more than even Madrid with 18.8% (2016)[7] But it's not he one with more investment (12.78% if you run the numbers)[8].

>More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

I didn't want independence, but I now want it, thanks to the words and actions of centralist people and politics. If you are saying that the majority doesn't want it because in 11 september's parade there was only 1 milion people and there are 6.5 milion more that weren't there... that doesn't compute (I wasn't there either).

[0]http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Audiencia-Nacional-Barcenas-...

[1]http://www.publico.es/politica/gurtel-perito-hacienda-confir...

[2]http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/07/59b0fab8ca47418b038b...

[3]http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-muertes-y-suicidios-larga-list...

[4]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/07/59b1092e22601dad19...

[5]http://dependencia.es/denuncian-que-hay-un-38-de-dependiente...

[6]https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fons_de_Liquiditat_Auton%C3%B2...

[7]http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/economia/catalunya-economia-esp...

[8]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/04/58e3...

EDIT:

Sorry, I didn't (and don't) have time to search for links in English. They are all in Spanish but one, that it's in Catalan (but has Spanish and German translation).

If there was any innacuracy in this post I'd rather have conversation than untold negativity.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by severino on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:52AM (#15293149)
> More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

Nobody knows if they are a majority or not. At least, unless they can vote about it, of course.

And please, don't give me polls.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by gasull on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:34AM (#15292993)
> The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings.

True, but at the same time, it was the Catalan Government who started the secession process, and they have plenty of corruption to hide too. And if they manage to become an independent country with their own judicial system, then they might get away with all the past corruption. Maybe that's the actual motivation.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by hectorlorenzo on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:18AM (#15292866)
Ah, yes, I completely agree with you. I haven't been living in Spain for some time now, and every time I go back I'm horrified by the tension between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. It's like a mild Civil War all over again.

The worst is the unspoken tension that this has created between me and my Spanish friends.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by notspanishflu on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:24AM (#15292911)
It is worse the tension between Catalans.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by victornomad on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:05AM (#15293279)
I agree with you. Im southern Spanish who lived and studied in Barcelona. Have lots of very good friends in Catalunya who somehow I'm loosing because of this situation.

I'm quite sad :(

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by Oletros on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:21AM (#15292887)
> The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings.

Don't forget PDECAT, for them it is also a smokescreen

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by adamc on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:51AM (#15293139)
I am reminded of (fake) Franklin quote in the movie 1776:

A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by icebraining on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:10AM (#15292803)
There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

They don't agree with independence, or with having a referendum at all? Just curious, I haven't been following it closely.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:38AM (#15293041)
With independence. There are some more that want the referendum, but frankly I think that's silly.

When a lot of corruption cases started to arise a few years ago, the local govern party had to ally with a far left separatist organization that demanded the referendum. So here we are.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by icebraining on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:55AM (#15293178)
I'm generally aware of the shadiness, but lots of things have sordid origins, I don't think that's a definitive argument against it. Corruption in politics is unfortunately not exactly a rare occurrence here in the Iberian Peninsula.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by jordic on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:30AM (#15292960)
That's not clear that there is a 50 % of people that don't want the independence, and anyway the referendum is the only way to check if the independence is the way for the majority.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by Oletros on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:07AM (#15292768)
> There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things

> This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.

Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime?

Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by hectorlorenzo on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:16AM (#15292840)
You have to consider the circumstances under which the Spanish Constitution was written. Franco had died, and after years of dictatorship and repression, the government was afraid of exactly this: separatism.

So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".

This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by notspanishflu on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:31AM (#15292967)
Please, don't try to rewrite History.

The Spanish Constitution is based in a very broad agreement, from Communists to the Far-Right Wing.

Then that agreement (the Constitution) was voted by all the Spanish People and received an immense support.

See the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referen...

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by occamrazor on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:02AM (#15293252)
I don't see a contradiction with GP post. As part of this broad agreement, the right and center-right forces request of indivisibility of Spain was included in the Constitution.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by notspanishflu on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:18PM (#15296109)
After Franco death, the first party to win a free election, and by majority, was a center party (UCD).

Every major party wanted indivisibility of Spain, including the PCE or Communist Party of Spain.

So please don't try to sell the territorial indivisibility as a right or center-right thing.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by arximboldi on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:54AM (#15293168)
The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution. The communist party supported it because it feared continuing to be illegal otherwise, and it is an issue that still causes them a lot of division.

My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. I agree that it is a conservative constitution made out of fear, with a flawed electoral system, a king, etc. The same fear that the party in power, lineage of the dictators, uses to address our aging population.

"Mejor malo conocido que bueno por conocer" (Better a known bad than the good that is jet to be known) is the worst Spanish saying.

I am Andalusian and pro-referendum.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:11AM (#15293320)
The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution.

Please don't spread misinformation.

You're confusing the referendum for politic reform of 1976 with the constitution of 1978. BOTH were voted in national referendum by free, direct and secret vote.

If you were suggesting that people didn't vote freely because fear, you are wrong.

My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it.

That's OK. There are, in the constitution itself a sort of ways to ammend it. If you have enough votes, you can do mostly everything.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:20AM (#15292880)
Guess what part of Spain voted massively yes to the current constitution.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by icebraining on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:12AM (#15292813)
Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?

I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:24AM (#15292909)
Secession is a crime?

You are confusing two meanings of the word. There is the meaning of breaking a country for whatever reasons. Like Sudan, or the USSR or Yugoslavia. There is another meaning: the crime of secession that tries to break a country by force and against its legitimate authorities, that often ends in a blood bath.

First meaning is not the same as the second.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by icebraining on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:31AM (#15292961)
You're missing the case of trying to break the country by force against its illegitimate authorities, otherwise how would you classify East Timor?
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:58AM (#15293212)
OK. The thing is there's nothing illegitimate in this case. Spanish authorities have full legitimacy. We are a standard democracy, integrated in EU and NATO since the eighties, our ellections are clean and our 1978 constitution was widely praised at the time for being a cornerstone of national reconcilliation.

The national government is held by PP, a right-wing party where a lot of corruption cases surfaced recently. There is much pressure about this, but the reality is that the prime minister was voted by a majority of parliament, so...

On the other hand, the referendum organizers voted it in an illegitimate regional parlament session. The regional president's party has been also corrupted to the roots. They were trying to hide it all behind all this adventure.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by arien on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:05AM (#15292755)
What about the Scottish Referendum then?
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by philipov on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:16AM (#15292848)
Different countries, different histories, different legal traditions. Scotland is a nation in the British Commonwealth, not a province (shire) of the nation of England. Aragon and Catalonia did not follow the same pattern.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by jordic on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:26AM (#15292924)
Catalonia had been a nation since the 10th century. Spanish gov doesn't want a referendum because their are afraid on loose....
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by philipov on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:34AM (#15292988)
Yes, England retained the nationalities of the kingdoms it absorbed and became a multinational state, whereas Spain followed more absolutist traditions and wanted not just fealty but complete assimilation. Scotland remained a nation after regal unification, whereas the nationhood of Catalonia is past tense, and therefore secession has significantly different legal ramifications in their respective empires.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by notspanishflu on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:31PM (#15296239)
Catalonia has never been a nation.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by jordic on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:08AM (#15293301)
The problem is that for spainyards Catalonia is just the old and rich colony. And they want to continue plunde it :(

If you look at a map you will understand the reason for why spain wants to hide and prevent a referendum.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by kgwgk on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @04:14PM (#15297794)
When was Catalonia colonized? Where did the settlers come from?
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by notspanishflu on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:30PM (#15296224)
"Catalonia had been a nation since the 10th century."

Again, if you believe that fantasy is true, is impossible to open your eyes to reality.

Please, point to a reputable source.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by lukasm on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:16AM (#15292839)
UK is an union of countries. Spain is not.
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by hectorlorenzo on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:07AM (#15292771)
The elephant in the room being?
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by narag on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:17AM (#15292849)
The elephant in the room being?

The elephant in the room is what I just wrote. A referendum to vote to commit a crime is a crime. And secession is not a walk in the park. Spanish government passivity might have given that impression, but at some moment, it seems to be now, things will start to get very serious.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by Oletros on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:20AM (#15292882)
I repeat, why secession is a crime?
Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by sornars on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:00AM (#15293224)
Because it violates the Spanish constitution as ruled by Spanish courts (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/catalonia-sece...).

The follow up argument is the government has the power to amend the constitution but it currently has no interest in doing so. If Catalans want to secede they must first convince their (national) politicians to amend the consitution to make secession legal and then hold a referendum on secession itself.

Re:Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT ... by gasull on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:37AM (#15293027)
By Spanish law secession is a crime. We can argue if it should be a crime. I think it shouldn't.