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Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by tabeth on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:10PM (#15193135)
What I've never understood is why anyone does opiates to begin with, under any circumstances. Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how terrible it is.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by garethsprice on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:33PM (#15193395)
Even though you don't drink, imagine you get into a minor accident on the way home from work today. You seem alright but your knee hurts the next morning, so you go to the doctor just to get it checked out. There's a strong chance that in the event of a minor injury you'd be (over-)prescribed oxycontin, percocet or another opiate. Doctors have been handing them out like candy in the US thanks to heavy promotion by pharma companies & pressure to get patients processed as quickly as possible (easier to give pills than really get to know a patient). The doctor says it's safe and it's a medical prescription so it's fine, right.

Your pain is gone and you're able to function normally. After a few weeks your supply runs out and the doctor refuses to renew your prescription despite your injury still causing you pain. The doctor provides no after-care or advice to avoid addiction, writes on your chart that you've exhibited "drug seeking behavior" and tells you to leave.

Your buddy says he has a friend, who hooks you up with a few Oxies (at least you think they're Oxy, the writing is in Chinese), and you're back to feeling "normal" again. After a while you run out of money, but your friend can supply you heroin at a lower price. Congrats you're a junkie, despite being a tee-totaler just a few months before.

Kinda condensed and I'm sure many people on HN will say "but that wouldn't be me". But it is the slope for many, many people in this country.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by tabeth on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:05AM (#15197981)
I don't buy this. Why are most of these people men then?
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by syshum on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:51PM (#15193613)
WOW there is a lot of incorrect crap in your comment.

Yes the US proscribes opiate based pain killers at a higher level then Socialized Medicine nations, mainly because American Patients do not accept the "live with the pain" treatment you get from Government run care where they refuse to provide pain killers unless you are screaming in pain, and even then they give you a Advil and tell you to "suck it up butter cup"

Screw that.

There are all kinds of people that cant not get the medication they have a legitimate medical need for because the these new crack downs on Opiate based pain killers, now these people are having to live with chronic pain because the doctor fear being sent to prison by the DEA, because the DEA knows more about medicine than a doctor does clearly

In your Hypothetical from Prescription to Heroin you blame the doctor, I blame the DEA. The artificial limits and constraints the DEA is placing on medical professionals is interfering with patient care, and causing some patients to turn on street drugs instead of proper medication

Contrary to what the DEA thinks, combating Drug abuse is not a police matter, it is a medical matter and should be left in the hand of medical doctors not the legal system

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by DanBC on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:12PM (#15193809)
You've made a few mistakes in this post.

The first, and perhaps most important, is that you think opioids are a suitable treatment for long term pain. They aren't. There is little evidence of efficacy of opioids for treatment of long term pain. Your suggestion - that we treat pain using opioids - i) doesn't treat pain, and ii) creates addicts.

More information here: https://www.fpm.ac.uk/faculty-of-pain-medicine/opioids-aware

> "live with the pain" treatment you get from Government run care where they refuse to provide pain killers unless you are screaming in pain

Quite clearly nonsense.

> The artificial limits

No, these are evidence based restrictions.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by syshum on Thursday September 07, 2017 @02:14PM (#15194378)
Umm, Number 1 in your link contradicts number 2, first they claim it is not helpful for long term relief, then go on to say it is helpful for long term relief.

Further in typical UK practice they claim it is not helpful but offer no alternative treatments, claiming it should be discontinued even if there are no alternative.

basically what I said "Suck it up buttercup" but they state it in a more PC and nanny government terminology

>Quite clearly nonsense.

hmmm

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Pain/Pages/Longtermpain.aspx

"You may also be referred for complementary therapy to see if that helps with the pain. You should be offered advice on how to better manage your pain on a day-to-day basis, such as by using self-help techniques."

Again, No pain Killer, just walk it off or deal with it. That is the UK policy on long term chronic Pain. Suck it up and learn to live with it.

>No, these are evidence based restrictions.

No infact they are not, not in the case of the DEA/US Drug Control Policy anyway

There is not a single drug control policy in the US that is "evidence based" most of is not even about the actual drugs, it is about power, control, money, and about 100 other things but not public safety or drugs

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by DanBC on Thursday September 07, 2017 @04:08PM (#15195237)
> Further in typical UK practice they claim it is not helpful but offer no alternative treatments, claiming it should be discontinued even if there are no alternative.

Untrue.

https://www.nice.org.uk/search?q=pain

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by mikestew on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:19PM (#15193870)
WOW there is a lot of incorrect crap in your comment.

And yet, oddly, you frittered away the opportunity to identify even one piece of “incorrect crap” to instead go off on a rant about the DEA. At least I think that’s what you’re on about.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by syshum on Thursday September 07, 2017 @02:20PM (#15194426)
I address many points.

1. I addressed how the OP blamed the doctors as the source of people becoming addicted to herion, I believe that to be false

2. I address why in a few limited cases where person starts out on prescriptions and ends up on heroin they are likely there due to aggressive and unethical Drug Control Policy enforced by the DEA

3. The OP implied that Opaties are Over proscribed, i disagree. Further would like to know if the OP has ever suffered or know anyone to suffer from Chronic Plain, and if they would enjoy seeing their loved on suffer daily because of the Actions of the DEA.

You are correct it is a Rant ont eh DEA however, I am 1000000000% opposed to the war on drugs, I feel it is single largest source of freedom in the nation. it is directly lead to the erosion on almost all constitutional rights, has put doctors having to choose between what is best for themselves (i.e staying out of jail) and what is best for the patient (i.e proper pain medication) and has been an abject failure in reducing drug us.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by ZenoArrow on Thursday September 07, 2017 @05:27PM (#15195901)
> "1. I addressed how the OP blamed the doctors as the source of people becoming addicted to herion, I believe that to be false"

You believe based on what evidence? Have you done any research into this or is it just a 'gut feeling'? To put it another way, what do you find misleading about the following video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sf46cwK9oc

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by mywittyname on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:20PM (#15193872)
You can't tell someone they are not in pain. If they stub a toe and say their pain is a 10-out-of-10, then you take their word for it.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by cirgue on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:21PM (#15193235)
> What I've never understood is why anyone does drugs to begin with, under any circumstances.

Poverty and the lack of opportunities to participate constructively in society do really fucked up things to human psychology. The current wave of opiate addiction frequently occurs as the result of prescribed pain medication.

>Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how terrible it is.

The signals people pick up from their peer groups have a much larger impact on their behavior than media ever could.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by tabeth on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:28PM (#15193335)
> The signals people pick up from their peer groups have a much larger impact on their behavior than media ever could.

This just begs the question. Why did the peers do it? Surely you see someone clearly messed up after doing drugs. Why go in follow them? There are other mindless things you could do like play video games to achieve a similar effect.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by maxerickson on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:21PM (#15193890)
There's all sorts of (arguably destructive/harmful) cultural behaviors that you could ask the same question about. Apparently the answer is that they are human.

I also wonder why you are so certain that video games are a substitute for drug use. Do you also not play video games?

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by tabeth on Thursday September 07, 2017 @04:35PM (#15195457)
I'd love to play, but no time to spare. I mentioned video games because the OP mentioned how peer group effects are strong. If that's the case and is a proposed explanation for opiate use, why aren't these people playing video games instead. Of course they could just be doing them both.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by fnovd on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:47PM (#15193563)
>Surely you see someone clearly messed up after doing drugs.

You may not start to see the negative impact of drug use until years later. By then it's too late.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by jethro_tell on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:42PM (#15193500)
People often self medicate as well in the absence of proper mental healthcare, or healthcare in general.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by drewrv on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:28PM (#15193328)
A lot of people, when they realize how badly they've been lied to about the dangers of marijuana, assume they've been lied to about the dangers of other drugs too.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by iak8god on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:16PM (#15193185)
All too often with opioids, the answer is: because you are in pain, and your doctor prescribes you these drugs as the recommended treatment for your pain, and you followed the doctor's instructions and got hooked.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by Touche on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:31PM (#15193369)
How often is that though? Is there research on this? What % of new opioid addicts come from doctor prescribed pain medication? I'm genuinely curious.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by ZoeZoeBee on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:07PM (#15193771)
>Of those who began their opioid abuse in the 1960s, more than 80% indicated that they initiated their abuse with heroin. In a near complete reversal, 75% of those who began their opioid abuse in the 2000s reported that their first regular opioid was a prescription drug.

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1...

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by DanBC on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:08PM (#15193780)
The US prescribes far more opioids than any other country.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/Sta...

In 2009 0.57% of the population between 15 and 64 took opiates (products of the poppy such as opium or heroin) and 5.9% of the same population took opioids, of which 5.6% were prescribed opioids.

It's got much worse since then.

Roughly 10% of people taking opioid medication will become addicted to them. (Mostly people taking it long term).

https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2015/hq110415.shtml

> Since 2002, prescription drug deaths have outpaced those of cocaine and heroin combined. Abuse of controlled prescription drugs is higher than that of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin, MDMA, and PCP combined.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by Touche on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:18PM (#15193863)
Thanks, this is not the information I was asking for though. I was asking for the % of new opioid addicts began their addiction from medication prescribed to them.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by dvdcxn on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:13PM (#15193163)
Because it's fun. Does there need to be a more deep reason than that?
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by rainbowmverse on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:15PM (#15193175)
When you have no hope, you look for ways to forget. Stuff like drugs and compulsive gambling follow a different kind of logic than people with something to lose apply to decisions. It's about dulling the pain of and distracting from abject poverty.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by cableshaft on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:24PM (#15193283)
For me that's what video games are for. Also video games are there for the good times too. Pretty much all video games, all the time, is what I'm saying.

*Not quite true, I have several hobbies, including designing games

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by tgb on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:18PM (#15193207)
My father was given a prescription to an opioid for a scratch on his eye that didn't hurt at all. That was maybe a year ago while the problem with opioids had been obvious for years at that point. If it had been a little painful and he hadn't known better, he might have taken them just because the doctor prescribed them!
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by maxxxxx on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:46PM (#15193543)
I am always amazed how quickly they give you hardcore painkillers. I have taken Vicodin once when I had my orbital bone smashed but otherwise I never fill the prescription. I don't know how prevalent this but I have seen stories in TV where people had kidney stones, got super strong painkillers and got addicted. The doctors notice this and cut their supply off cold turkey so the only way out for those people is heroin.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by jschwartzi on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:33PM (#15193386)
I've gotten them even when I've claimed not to feel any pain. When I fell off my bicycle I was given a prescription for Vicodin which I proceeded to fill and then never use.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by mattnewton on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:25PM (#15193289)
Because being sober feels more terrible in your situation?

As for how they get started, I've been prescribed a large bottle of powerful painkillers for having my wisdom teeth removed. It's not hard to get exposure under doctor's orders in the US.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by kibwen on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:14PM (#15193172)
1. Someone is injured, they are prescribed a painkiller, the prescription runs out before the pain does, and they turn to cheaper street drugs.

2. Desperation and a sense of inescapable hopelessness can make a whole lot of people do things they never thought they'd consider doing.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by clu3l355 on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:29PM (#15193354)
The article is saying that those unemployed have a higher rate of prescription though, not just illicit use

>Krueger’s study linked county prescription rates to labor force data from the past 15 years

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by kibwen on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:45PM (#15193534)
Rather than commenting on the article, my goal is to help the grandparent empathize with how people keep falling into such a seemingly obvious trap. If we can't understand why people keep resorting to these behaviors--if we find their motivations entirely alien--then that precludes the ability to take the steps necessary to help these people, or prevent the same from befalling others (and possibly ourselves).
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by gozur88 on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:40PM (#15193467)
That kind of makes sense, though. You probably can't keep up with healthy people if you're in pain bad enough to require opioids.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by maxxxxx on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:49PM (#15193590)
Some people are also more prone to addiction. I have no interest in drugs but I have unsuccessfully tried to stop eating chocolate. Couldn't do it. So if you are prone to addiction it's just really hard to stay away.
Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by Clubber on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:50PM (#15193602)
Probably because the people who got hooked, got hooked before the media storm. You know, back when Pharma said they weren't addictive because the slow release nature of the pills?

Also, probably boredom.

You have to understand what middle America looks like today. It used to be vibrant, now it's nothing but shells of ghost towns. This happened for a few reasons:

1. Walmartization killed all the independent shops. 2. Agribusiness made family farming untenable. 3. Out of country manufacturing.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by cr0sh on Thursday September 07, 2017 @03:02PM (#15194784)
I'd say all three are part of a feedback loop death spiral.

1. Walmart - always lower prices (people want cheap crap)

2. So...cheap food means scale it up really big (agrabusiness)

3. And cheap non-food mean outsourced manufacturing (because people want big salaries to buy lots of cheap crap)

...and perhaps that's where it started, that last bit:

People want big salaries (or paychecks, or pay - whatever), so they can buy more stuff (there's also the whole "easy credit" thing - but that's another discussion). They want that stuff cheaper. So businesses searched for ways to make it cheaper: Scale stuff up, have fewer employees (or pay them less), and outsource manufacturing.

Classic death spiral.

/I know I am over-simplifying things here...

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by nnfy on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:25PM (#15193285)
Drugs are a tool like any other. Or rather, each drug can be a tool in its own right. There are drugs for sleeping, drugs for focus, drugs for creativity, drugs for fun... You've literally been conditioned by the media (and probably the drug war) to be drug averse. "Drugs" should not be a dirty word.

What the media shows you is the consequences irresponsible use. You dont need to go shoot up laced heroin in a back alley to understand. I am always amused when people correlate drug use with poverty or some other nonsense, implying that white collar professionals dont do drugs. Successful people are just less likely to be caught and/or open about use, I think.

Oh, by the way, alcohol is a drug. Caffeine is a drug. The distinction between legal and illegal drugs is entirely arbitrary and in many cases unconstitutional.

Re:Opioid Use Could Explain 20% of the Drop in American Men ... by i_am_nomad on Thursday September 07, 2017 @12:41PM (#15193487)
For the same reason that torture doesn't work. People will do anything, and say anything, to escape pain when the pain is bad enough.