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Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @02:35AM (#14977027)
We'll see how the trend moves going forward, but even after capturing (by rhetoric if not act) the white house, the alt-right continues to be a radical fringe, and suffers from serious internal contradictions that make any serious movement building doomed. The movement has attracted the attention of a lot of white nationalists, anti-semites and hardline fascists (amren, natall, kss), while also attracting a new wave of online-prominent trolls and shit-stirrers.

But what happens when the 4chan poster with the anime pillow who denies the holocaust just to get a rise out of the libcucks crosses paths with an actual hardline anti-semite who is interested in building an even-more-final solution?

To use a colloquialism, what happens when the rubber meets the road? Do the fascists tolerate what they would consider to be total degeneracy for the sake of finally building a mass movement? Does the online troll recognize that what was an ironic joke for him is a hard reality for others, and move to push their real-life activism away from those types of groups?

This is what I mean by internal contradictions, the kind that can kill a mass movement before it even starts.

So while there is a common refrain of "this is why Trump won, and the movement of contrarians, devils advocates, trolls, anti-pc crusaders, people who tweet about white genocide, stormfront regulars and conspiracy theorists is only going to grow if you being offensive towards them", the reality is much, much more complicated.

Trust in Trump has plummeted, even amongst his core. The vote is very quickly slipping out of the grasp of the Right, and was always a race against time demographically to begin with. And if you're in a position where you can't win through democratic means, you have to use other means (boycotts, protests, organizing, etc). And the alt-right is utterly lamed by it's own hand before that race has even started.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by rufus_2 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:20AM (#14977211)
> Trust in Trump has plummeted, even amongst his core. The vote is very quickly slipping out of the grasp of the Right

This is certainly the message being broadcast into every home on the planet for the last 6 moths. In reality it seems a bit optimistic when we consider the Democrats are coming from a decade-long losing streak (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/25/...), a monumentally embarrassing, record cost $1.2B failed 2016 Presidential campaign (http://nypost.com/2016/12/09/hillary-clintons-losing-campaig...), and following these up by going 0-6 in federal elections (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/21/georgia-special-e...) leaving them with their lowest representation in American government since the 1920's (http://www.npr.org/2016/03/04/469052020/the-democratic-party...).

I think it's pretty safe to say that the American leftist revolution is _not_ right around the corner.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by mathw on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:35AM (#14977285)
Indeed but I think a lot of leftists would be very happy just to get rid of Trump. A right-wing government with a President who displays any kind of understanding of diplomacy, international politics and everyday reality would be an improvement.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by rufus_2 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @10:59AM (#14980360)
I fear what Trump would be replaced with if the establishment GOP and Democrats actually managed to oust him.

The environment that catalyzed Trump's rise to power has not changed - if anything, it has intensified.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:43AM (#14977331)
Right now, we have two indicators: The way the swings on the special elections are going, which are all violently swinging away from the Republicans, even if Republicans end up winning, it's barely by single digits in double digit districts.

And the polling, which in aggregate, across all demographics, has been continually moving more and more negative each passing month. Even polls like Rasmussen, which have a traditional right-wing bias, have shown a consistent drop in support.

Metrics like the ones you mentioned aren't useful as predictors. Yes, the Democrats spent a lot of money. So did the Republicans. Big money elections are the norm now, and each election has a loser.

Your reference to losing special elections only tells half the story. These are races that should have been as safe as safe can be. That's why they're special elections, because when Presidents make appointments, they only tend to choose people from their party who are in such safe districts that they can easily be replaced. Often-times, the national party doesn't even send monetary support to these special elections, because they're re-won so handily.

Take Ossoff's challenge in Georgia. He lost by 4 points in a district that went for Trump by 19 points. Moreover, the Republicans were required to spend $25 million in order to defend a seat that they had most likely budgeted around $0 for. That's what's called a weathervane. Or a canary in a coal mine.

Even further down this rabbit hole, the 0-6 loss article is from June. Since then, we've had Phil Miller win by 9 points in a district that Trump won by 21 points, which means that's a 30 point swing! We also have Kevin Cavanaugh winning by 23.4 points in a district that Clinton only won by 0.1 points. There's also been sweeps of state legislatures in traditionally VERY deep red states such as Oklahoma.

Every single trend points to a very difficult 2018 for the Republicans, and an especially difficult 2020.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by akvadrako on Thursday August 10, 2017 @06:01AM (#14978134)
This is a nice debate topic, because we'll have a clear cut answer next year. If you truly believe there is at least a 50% chance of Democrats controlling the house or 20% chance in the senate, you can make some easy money:

house: https://www.predictit.org/Market/2704/Which-party-will-contr...

senate: https://www.predictit.org/Market/2703/Which-party-will-contr...

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by rtx on Thursday August 10, 2017 @07:40AM (#14978653)
Here is something that will explain what happened. Though it may disappoint you.

Ossoff got 125,517 votes Handel got 134,799 votes.

Compare

Dem - 124,917 Rep - 201,088

As you see there was no swing in Dem's favour.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by rtx on Thursday August 10, 2017 @11:27AM (#14980646)
The second stat is from 2016 elections.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @11:40AM (#14980769)
You know, people think elections are about convincing one side to switch over to the other. That's actually not how swings occur. They happen by people deciding to stay home or come out.

A special election is a hard sell. Democrats sold it. Republicans didn't.

Mid-term elections are also hard sells. We'll see who can sell it.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by flukus on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:20AM (#14977541)
> Take Ossoff's challenge in Georgia. He lost by 4 points in a district that went for Trump by 19 points. Moreover, the Republicans were required to spend $25 million in order to defend a seat that they had most likely budgeted around $0 for. That's what's called a weathervane. Or a canary in a coal mine.

Isn't that normal? In Australia these sorts of elections usually swing heavily against the government of the day but are very poor predictions of what will happen at a general election. Is this not the norm in America?

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:25AM (#14977570)
For mid-term elections, yes, they usually swing against the party in power. The extent to which they swing varies wildly, though, so all we know is that there likes will be a traditional anti-establishment swing, but the magnitude of it is unknown.

However, a special election within the months after a Presidential election should follow the same results, since there hasn't been the time to build the resentment necessary for a significant change in voting patterns. That, however, has not been the case with the Trump presidency.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by flukus on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:47AM (#14977735)
That mirrors our experience after the 2013 federal election, the fell hard and fast but changed the leader and still snuck through at the last general election.

We've also seen the trend at state level for the last few years, it seems swings are coming harder and faster.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by generic_user on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:47AM (#14977729)
I think this this is the talking points for the Democrats but its not very convincing.

> The way the swings on the special elections are going, which are all violently swinging away from the Republicans.

The Republicans won all 6 special elections.

> Take Ossoff's challenge in Georgia. He lost by 4 points > the Republicans were required to spend $25 million

He lost. And it was the Democrats who spent $23 Million (the most ever spent) on the election not the Republicans. The republicans spent like $3 Million dollars.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @05:01AM (#14977810)
> The Republicans won all 6 special elections.

By slim margins in what should have been extremely safe districts.

Then they lost the next 2, one of which by way a 30 point swing.

The swing is not something you can hand-wave away. It's one of the best metrics we have as a predictor for 2018.

> The republicans spent like $3 Million dollars.

Estimates on how much was spent on the election range from $40-$60 million.

$23 million is the amount of fundraising that was done by Ossoff's campaign, independent of the DCCC or traditional DNC PACs, which means none of it came from their "warchest". The DCCC provided an additional $5 million of TV ad spends in Ossoff's favor.

On the Republican side, they spent way more than $3 million. The NRCC spent about $6.7 million on TV ad spends. Paul Ryan's SuperPAC spent about $5 million on airtime and $2 million on additional costs. Two other conservative PACs raised an additional $1 million.

https://www.issueone.org/money-behind-expensive-u-s-house-ra...

The breakdown is very complicated, because money can come in from dozens of different types of sources, and the numbers aren't usually finalized until long after the election ends.

The $23 million figure, however, was mostly crowd-sourced in small donations. So to be very clear, you can say that came from citizens who identify as Democrats and be generally right, but to say it came from Democrats as an organization or a political entity, that is not correct.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by supremesaboteur on Thursday August 10, 2017 @07:53AM (#14978735)
Democrats spent a lot more money on these races and were still not able to win. This is clearly a problem for them. The swing in margins can be explained by the fact that the President's party mostly always loses some points
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @11:41AM (#14980781)
> the President's party mostly always loses some points

Not in the double digits, they don't. And not in special elections shortly into the first year of the Presidency, especially.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by Const-me on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:17AM (#14977199)
Very likely you’re right about the current state of alt right movement (I live in Europe and haven’t been monitoring the subject).

But GP only mentioned alt-rights as an example of where might the voters turn their preferences.

Even at Google where James worked, many employees agree with his memo (36%), and the majority, 54% of them think the memo is harmless and was OK to share: https://basicgestalt.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/press-f-for-ja...

After Google fired him, these 54% will inevitably think about what other ideas they think are harmless might cause them to be fired. Not exactly comforting thoughts.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:47AM (#14977355)
For the life of me, I cannot find a legitimate source for that poll. I see the image popping up on a lot of less-than-reputable websites (wordpress blogs, tweets, businessinsider, etc) but no actual source for it, let alone any idea of its methodology.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by panda88888 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:59AM (#14977417)
Since it's allegedly Google internal poll, you probably won't find more information on it beyond screenshot. After what happened to Damore and calls for his supporters to be fired as well, most people are probably clamming up now.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:01AM (#14977425)
I can't say that inspires confidence that the poll is even legitimate. Do we at least have proof that it actually was an internal Google poll and not someone's 15 minutes in photoshop?
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by zimpenfish on Thursday August 10, 2017 @05:50AM (#14978077)
Assuming it was legitimate, 282 self-selected responses from a company with tens of thousands of employees wouldn't pass even the most basic "is this poll statistically valid?" test.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by TezlaOil on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:29PM (#14985663)
> wouldn't pass even the most basic "is this poll statistically valid?" test

It totally would. Statistically, a sample size of 282 out of a population of 60000 is pretty good.

If this test was authentic, we would be 95% sure that the true percentage of the population who think that the memo is harmless is between 47% and 60%.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by zimpenfish on Friday August 11, 2017 @05:50AM (#14988040)
Presumably that would require a population-representative sample of 282 though, not a self-selected (and therefore potentially biased) sample.

Otherwise you could run a poll "Who thinks [minority] should leave the USA?", get a high "yes" response, say "THE POPULACE AGREE!" but then discover only racists/whatever have replied because Breitbart/4chan dogpiled the poll - which would make it 100% invalid, no?

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by Const-me on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:30AM (#14977601)
No, we don’t have that proof.

However, the design matches the defaults of google forms, exact colors and their sequence, too: http://imgur.com/WPC0ogZ

Also the header says "gd-jpeg v1.0", it’s a cross platform open source C library with bindings for all modern programming languages including Go and Python: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GD_Graphics_Library

Even if that’s a fake, it’s a good one.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:43AM (#14977691)
I mean, GD has been around for over 20 years. It's not obscure. It's extremely popular. Most coders have used it at some point.

I could whip upa similar graph without breaking a sweat that says whatever I'd like, and it would have all the same hallmarks of this one. I could even do it in PHP using ImageMagick (if I felt masochistic) and fake the file header to say it was created using GD. Or build it in photoshop, and pull it into a binary editor.

So I think unless there's someone who can point to greater evidence that this is an internal graph, there's just no reason to believe it is.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by yorwba on Thursday August 10, 2017 @06:11AM (#14978180)
> So I think unless there's someone who can point to greater evidence that this is an internal graph, there's just no reason to believe it is.

So I think unless there's someone who can point to the actual internal graph, there's just no reason to believe this is fake.

The distribution this poll shows is not so outlandish as to be unbelievable, and importantly it does not lend itself to overwhelmingly support one side over the other. Why would anyone spend time and effort to fake it?

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @11:39AM (#14980758)
> Why would anyone spend time and effort to fake it?

It's a heated argument on the internet. There'd be plenty of incentive to fake a graph in order to bolster one's opinion.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by yorwba on Thursday August 10, 2017 @12:03PM (#14981018)
My point is that if you are going to fake a graph to bolster your opinion, you might as well fake one that actually bolsters your opinion, instead of just mildly suggesting that not everyone disagrees with you.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @02:49PM (#14982865)
I'm really disappointed we're even having this conversation on Hacker News. A graph with no source, no methodology, no context is useless. We're computer programmers, we should know enough about data to recognize this and dismiss it until we have those things.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by cm2187 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:27AM (#14977579)
I am not sure I get your objection. It's like saying that Clinton couldn't win the election because she had far-left/communist sympathisers. I am sure she did. And I am also sure these were a marginal portion of her electoral base. I don't see how these extremists would stand in the way of a broader movement.

I am not bullish on Trump long term, but not because some extremists also support him, but because of his own randomness and inability to get things done in Washington.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:38AM (#14977644)
It might be important I clarify that I'm not talking about the right, I'm talking about the far right (re-branded as the "alt-right"). This does not include most people who vote Republican or consider themselves traditional conservatives.

The traditional conservative movement is dying out. Quite literally, it has a demographic problem that it is not sure how to resolve. In it's place, you have the alt-right, which does tend to be more youthful, but which acts as an umbrella for a wide variety of extremist viewpoints, everything from extreme libertarianism to conspiracy theorists to white nationalism to single-issue anti-islamic advocates and a whole host of others. And within that milieu, a large proportion of people are not singularly committed to those hard-right ideologies as much as they define themselves solely in their rejection of liberalism, the left, or social justice. The result is a whole host of confusion. The alt-right is constantly infighting about cultural issues such as traditional masculinity or gay rights, to the difference between opposition to illegal immigration (a viewpoint which can claim to be more centrist) or opposing immigration altogether, including legal (which is held by the nationalist wing of the movement).

As the voting base disappears, these groups will have to figure out how to grow their movement, make political demands, maintain a presence without burning out, etc. Just like all movements do. But that's exactly where those intense internal divisions come in and wreak havoc.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by sheepmullet on Thursday August 10, 2017 @06:34AM (#14978300)
I don't think so.

The alt-right is not constantly infighting.

The left are more likely to devolve into infighting.

This google guy was moderate left wing and the hard line social justice response from Google and the media will alienate a lot more of the intellectual left.

Hispanics and African Americans often lean socially conservative.

Gay men are a lot more fiscally conservative than you might think.

None of those groups identify with single white woman.

Etc etc.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by ZeroGravitas on Thursday August 10, 2017 @07:52AM (#14978728)
"This google guy" was a self-declared conservative, and mentioned cultural marxism, an alt-right touchstone, in the very memo that is being discussed.

His first interviews were with alt-right Youtube channels.

I agree with your points about lots of minority groups being socially (and/or fiscally) conservative. It's lucky for the left that the white social conservatives have been driving them away consistently for decades.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by sheepmullet on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:32AM (#14978949)
Certainly a conservative compared to his coworkers.

I'd argue he is still left of center.

He is just interviewing with the groups who will give him a fair go.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by TheAceOfHearts on Thursday August 10, 2017 @09:45AM (#14979548)
Jordan Peterson is alt-right?
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by ZeroGravitas on Thursday August 10, 2017 @10:12AM (#14979856)
I'd never heard of him till yesterday, when I read a comment where he replied to one of his fans who wanted to form a breakaway state so his children could be raised only among their own ethnicity, and his reply was (paraphrasing from memory, but it was a weird enough answer that it kind of stuck) "Strengthen your soul to achieve your political goals".

So yeah he's definitely in that general area.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by cm2187 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:59AM (#14977792)
Ok, but agreeing with the infamous memo doesn't make someone a far right extremist. The parent comment suggested it will push them to vote for a harder-line movement but there is a big margin between being opposed to affirmative action and white supremacists.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @05:04AM (#14977824)
I absolutely agree that agreeing with the memo doesn't make someone a far right extremist, and I don't believe I ever stated or insinuated that. That's a bit of a non-sequitur, though. This is the exact point I was referring to:

they won't change their position. If anything, their position will be radicalized. For example, from classical liberal to alt-right.

This is been a common sort of mantra since Trump won the presidency. Whenever we have a controversial event like this, people make a statement that any actions by those on the left will only further radicalize people in the other direction. I don't think it's true, but most of all, I don't think that other direction really leads anywhere useful. For the reasons I outlined previously.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by tiogemini on Thursday August 10, 2017 @05:56AM (#14978112)
Do you think the author will be radicalized? When I try to empathize with Damore the alt-right looks welcoming while liberals look very unwelcoming. I could see myself being drawn towards the group that accepts me (or doesn't attack me). That's the process that I assumed from the radicalization idea. Have I missed the mark?
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by michaelchisari on Thursday August 10, 2017 @11:45AM (#14980817)
> the alt-right looks welcoming

Superficially at most. When you go to some of the most popular alt-right facebook pages, and you see caricatures of Jews and whole racial groups consistently disparaged and stereotyped, and when you see just how many people posting in them have cross-interests with white supremacist and misogynist movements, you realize that "welcoming" is a very, very narrow term.

Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by xapata on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:09AM (#14978813)
He was alt-right to begin with.
Re:Outraged about the Google diversity memo? by Chris2048 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:17AM (#14978862)
> But what happens when the 4chan poster with the anime pillow who denies the holocaust just to get a rise out of the libcucks crosses paths with an actual hardline anti-semite who is interested in building an even-more-final solution?

Sounds like an amazing sit-com. Stay tuned, folks!