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Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by naturalgradient on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:18PM (#14962086)
What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people.

I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian.

Not the Tweeters shaking with anger and demanding for him to get fired.

Not the Ex-Google guy with his medium rant about how people would punch him in the face and he would understand.

Not the diversity officer reaffirming the commitment to diversity in a dystopian way.

It is scary, it really is. We have all grown up learning about regimes like this, we are all aware, yet seemingly nobody can help themselves.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:30PM (#14962257)
I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast ...

Maybe some people are calling for stuff like that.

But that's not what Google's doing to him. Google's just saying: "You can't do that here."

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by lliamander on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:40PM (#14962400)
And is arguably walking a very fine line in doing so.

IANAL, but it is illegal for employers to use the threat of firing to compel employees to take (or avoid) a political course of action.

Furthermore, it is illegal for employers to punish employees for speaking up about issues the employee believes affect working conditions (which was largely the premise of the employees essay).

Google side-stepped the issue by firing him for statements which may (or may not) violate anti-discrimination policies that just so happened to be in his essay.

They left largely unchallenged (and it seems to me, rather reinforced) the central complaint. Namely that Google was fostering a politically stifling atmosphere.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:45PM (#14964526)
I highly doubt that any judge (or sufficiently informed jury) would find that Google acted in response to any political activity on his part, per se.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by lliamander on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:08PM (#14964673)
The point is: the employee had concerns about working conditions at Google and how Google was pursuing it's goals. He even offered (what he believed) were useful suggestions. Other employees had similar concerns.

Instead of answering his concerns, they fired him because they thought his suggestions were offensive (or rooted in offensive ideology).

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:55AM (#14966411)
> they thought his suggestions were offensive

Not only were they offensive, they had no grounding in reality and made it impossible for many people there to work with or trust him.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by anon12345690 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @10:00AM (#14968865)
and here we go -- it wasnt an academic paper but it was completely based on facts. biologically, men and women are different, and they think differently and so no matter how much society and culture impacts you, that biology will ever so slightly bias every decision in your life and may be part of the mismatch in representation between genders.

the idea that females and males LIKE different things and its IN PART based on biology, is completely real and valid and not offensive in the slightest.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:49PM (#14971089)
So you know that it's entirely possible to write something that's "based on facts" -- with nice diagrams and all! -- yet when we consider the whole cloth of what's being said, it turns out to be fatally flawed -- and basically a load of tripe?

That's what this "manifesto" was.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by anon12345690 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:53PM (#14972935)
i summarized it right there, what part do you think is flawed?

if you're saying men/women think identically, then there is even no reason for gender diversity because it only becomes physical differences at that point, do you realize that?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:54PM (#14973501)
There was way, way more to his "manifesto" than what's in your summary, actually.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by lliamander on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:02PM (#14964626)
Perhaps not, but what was Google responding to? The central concern of the employee (as stated in his memo) was the political behavior by Google.

See also: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/07/it-may-be-illegal-for-google...

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:10PM (#14964683)
Right, but I from what I understand the statutes that project against coercion on the basis of "political behavior" define it fairly narrow terms such as endorsing candidates, making donations and so forth. Which do not apply in this case.

And as to "organizing for better workplace conditions" - well yeah, there's some overlap, there. But his campaign went quite a ways beyond that, as well.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by lliamander on Thursday August 10, 2017 @01:55AM (#14976849)
> Right, but I from what I understand the statutes that project against coercion on the basis of "political behavior" define it fairly narrow terms such as endorsing candidates, making donations and so forth. Which do not apply in this case.

Ah that makes sense. A fair point. Still, I think that "organizing around workplace conditions" and "calling attention to possible violations of anti-discrimination laws" (both of which were mentioned in the article I referenced) are possible grounds for a suit.

> But his campaign went quite a ways beyond that, as well.

Do you mean the claimed violation of Google code of conduct that was the basis for his firing? I don't know what their CoC is specifically, but if it's anything like the other CoC's I've seen, I think it's debatable whether he did actually violated it.

Many of the claims I have seen about hurtful things in the memo (such as that the women at Google don't deserve to be there) are unsubstantiated by the text of the memo itself. The topics he was trying to discuss, the topics which the CEO himself (and at least 60% of the employees) say should be discussed, are an emotional minefield. Despite claims to the contrary, Damore was very careful with his words.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jessaustin on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:50AM (#14979071)
Truth in account name...
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by nxsynonym on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:34PM (#14962315)
That's kind of the point though.

Google is one of, if not the, biggest player in terms of information served over the internet. If they are willing to censor at this level, how far will they go to protect their public image and suppress discussion they don't agree with?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by bilbo0s on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:39PM (#14962380)
But Google isn't really "censor"-ing anyone.

Any more than I "censor" you if you come on to my property and refer to my daughter as the "c"-word. I mean... you can call my daughter whatever you like, I just don't allow you to do it in my house. That's not really censorship no matter how big the house is, that's just something that people should expect to happen. In fact... I think people should find it more strange if my daughter and I did NOT put you out of our house.

You can still call her whatever you like outside of our home. You're still free to do that.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by nxsynonym on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:46PM (#14962484)
I think it would be more like if your Son said "what if I called my sister a c-word" and you kicked him out of the house and cut him off completely.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to do that, or that in this example your son was right, I just think it would be an over-reaction and would create a chilling effect on your other children from asking questions or thinking about things differently.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:34PM (#14972769)
From the context it sounds like you're talking about the actions of some hypothetical teenage son, here.

Recall that the employee that was fired is an adult (and apparently in his 30s, at least).

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by BlackLotus89 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:57PM (#14972985)
Yeah he ist talking about the hypthetical son, but obviously not because of the age but because of the relation. The point was rule through fear. (Siblings don't speak up anymore - coworkers don't speak up anymore)

Also yeah he had to bei in his 30th how else would he have gotten his phd? But like I said the age wasn't the point.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by qbaqbaqba on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:53AM (#14965892)
Of course they are censoring people: ask anyone living in China. Now it applies to their own employees. Also, the fired person didn't called anyone 'c'-word. That are facts.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by leereeves on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:49PM (#14962523)
Google's platform isn't analogous to a house (a private space) it's more like a privately-owned public space.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by runako on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:37PM (#14962343)
> suppress discussion they don't agree with

Worth noting: he could post this publicly on Google+, Blogspot, or any other Google platform. It's only his paycheck that's being suppressed, his views are not.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by JSONwebtoken on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:50PM (#14962541)
I doubt it. The women threatening to quit over twitter would still do the same thing if a social media post attached to his name and job went viral.

Make no mistake, it's his views that he was fired over, not the medium in which he shared them. Google made no indication otherwise.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:26PM (#14963974)
The terrible behaviors described by the parent post, are a part of the culture which drive so many individuals to demand that he be fired.

Consider the people within Google who declare their unwillingness to work with the person that believes in science and in treating people like individuals.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:48PM (#14964542)
their unwillingness to work with the person that believes in science

Actually I found his piece to be distinctly unscientific.

It parades as scientific, for sure. But when you break it down, and consider the whole of the message it imparts... at it's core, it was very unscientific.

And I bet that those at Google who decided to terminate his employment felt pretty much the same way.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by josteink on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:35AM (#14965569)
> it's core, it was very unscientific

He was very good at sourcing almost every single one of his claims with references to published scientific studies.

Your statement on the other hand has zero quotes to support your claim.

I know which one I will consider "unscientific".

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by keerthiko on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:30AM (#14966055)
A scientific approach to discussing something is not about upholding your view with select studies that back your viewpoint. It's about proposing a hypothesis, then collecting and presenting unbiased studies, observations and data for all sides, and then supporting final inferences and conclusions.

The last part is "the message" of a scientific publication (the "why I worked on/wrote this").

Why was his memo unscientific? 1. His choice of data presentation was almost exclusively for his side of the hypothesis, of the form "women are biologically inclined to X" without including any of the (vast corpus of) counter-studies* that directly offset many of his core supporting arguments.

2. Even if his arguments were sufficiently sound (which is unlikely as per 1.), his conclusions were a bit of a quantum leap from his "sourced" claims to "this is unfair, divisive, bad for business" (as per the TLDR). He pretty much just decided that for himself. There were few or no studies/data/observations to support that crucial step.

*going to piggyback off the sources linked in this slate article: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/07/the_google_a...

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jhanschoo on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:19AM (#14966238)
Actually, his conclusion itself was also sourced: his main contention was that Google should reconsider its positive discrimination policies, and he cited a WSJ article reporting that positive discrimination can lead to more gender strife.

I think the standard that you have set for the author expressing these opinions is unfairly high, and the bar that you have set for yourself for criticizing him for expressing that is unfairly low. You criticize that the author has cherry-picked his sources; you now have to support that claim by showing the deluge of counter-studies that show that it is not true that women are inclined to X personality. I've checked the Slate article and it doesn't link to sources that show that. In fact, the first paragraph of the article links to articles that agree with that WSJ article and with the author that discrim. leads to gender strife.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by dqv on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:38AM (#14966333)
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/07/the_google_a...

> the sources linked in this slate article

I couldn't find any counter-studies in the article you linked. I tried traversing the sources, but those sources don't have any studies either. Is that the link you intended to post?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by keerthiko on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:22PM (#14972669)
You are correct, it was my mistake. The medium article (posted elsewhere and often in response to this) counters several of the points and is reasonably cited. However, I noticed that there are few responses to #1 (the medium author writes "I’ll leave that to someone else" and I haven't found anyone else take that up).

I'll grant that I had a kneejerk reaction of "that can't be accurate" and assumed there must be lots of literature to back me up, but it isn't easy to find it. Personally I neither support nor oppose this manifesto, but I think given the very expectable backlash and damage potential, drawing such concrete conclusions without stronger grounds was a bit too risque to be considered scientific.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:57PM (#14971171)
Your statement on the other hand has zero quotes to support your claim.

Whether a claim (or other statement) someone makes is "scientific" or not is, fundamentally, a matter of the soundness and logical coherence of the overall argument they're making. And about the aspects of the issue they sidestep and ignore (and this guys ignores a whole lot in his manifesto, actually) as much as the aspects they cite.

Not the number of footnotes, quote or diagrams it has.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by mbrodersen on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:55PM (#14985794)
You clearly don't understand how science works.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:12PM (#14970713)
"consider the whole of the message it imparts"

This is a dangerous level of indirection. "The whole of the message". Sounds like you are reading into what it says, finding things that it doesn't actually say - without acknowledging that you are doing so.

The paper demonstrates that the author values diversity, open dialog, and science.

And many people at Google declared they were unwilling to work with such a person.

Those are the people who should have been fired, for creating a hostile, intolerant work environment.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:52PM (#14971113)
This is a dangerous level of indirection. "The whole of the message". Sounds like you are reading into what it says, ...

No, it's called "assessing it qualitatively as well as quantitatively".

Which is a very useful skill, actually.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by dvfjsdhgfv on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:00PM (#14963295)
Can't do what exactly?

The author not only clearly stated this, he even included a picture to make it clear: https://diversitymemo.com/population-overlap.png

Does it really deserve a reaction of "You can't do that here"?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:50PM (#14964559)
Does it really deserve a reaction of "You can't do that here"?

Google's decision was most definitely not in response to that graphic you linked to.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by keerthiko on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:12AM (#14965976)
There are differences between saying "You can't do that here, so..."

1) "... we will fire you, because you have generated negative press for us with this even though we had no explicit policy prohibiting this"

2) "... we will fire you because what you did has directly violated an explicit existing company policy"

3) "... we will give you a warning, and add 'workplace gender diversity' to the list of topics prohibited from public discourse by employees so that in the future we can fire people for this"

It's unclear whether 1) or 2) happened (I suspect it was 1), and they could have chosen 3). They didn't. And the poor sap probably doesn't want to consider a lawsuit against Google if it was 1) and not 2) even if one could argue wrongful termination. And that's exactly what authoritarianism is about, the power to make rules pretty much on the fly and expect those affected by your choices to play by them.

PS: Not taking sides here, IMHO the manifesto was dumb and the person sounded like a green'un who got a rude dose of reality from what he probably considered merely a provoking thought experiment/writing exercise.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by macspoofing on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:53PM (#14962592)
>But that's not what Google's doing to him. Google's just saying: "You can't do that here."

And that's probably OK and kind of expected. To me what was interesting was that even the CEO had to not only denounce it, but also cut his vacation short to hold a staff town-hall.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by dvfjsdhgfv on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:02PM (#14963312)
I find it hard to believe you really read the original piece (https://diversitymemo.com/) and still consider he deserved being fired.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:00PM (#14964623)
Neah, kinda just skimmed it.

That is, "really read" a select paragraph or two. Enough to make a basic determination as to what he's driving at -- and to note that we've seen variants of this message from other sources, before -- and make a decision about how much of one's attention resources it merits, moving forward -- accordingly.

As one does with any rant, or other poorly thought-out screed.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by josteink on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:37AM (#14965581)
So you didn't actually read it, but here you are still spending time defending how its author really should be fired over it.

Crazy.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:59PM (#14971196)
So you didn't actually read it,

Did you ever actually read L. Ron Hubbard's seminal work, Dianetics? I mean, really read it? Cover-to-cover?

No, you say? And yet you dismiss it?

That's crazy.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by josteink on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:11PM (#14972006)
> And yet you dismiss it?

I don't dismiss it because I have no idea what it's about. I don't approve of it either, for the exact same reasons.

Anyhow: You're comparing reading less than 10 pages of large text with generous spacing and numerous illustrations to end-to-end reading a full book almost 500 pages long.

You can't be serious.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:40PM (#14972812)
I don't dismiss it because I have no idea what it's about.

The church he founded was one of the major annoyances of the latter half of the 20th century. If you're interested in the general history of Really Bad Ideas (and how they draw otherwise warm sensitive, intelligent people into their fold), you might want to look into it.

Let's just say I've considered the works of a lot cranks and crackpots, over the years - and a lot of viewpoints that, while not quite in that category, are just muddled and inflammatory and don't have a lot to offer to the discussion. Enough to develop a pretty reliable sense of "smell" as to whether a given piece of work merits further exploration beyond a few paragraphs or so.

So whether or not one thinks he should be fired for it -- his "manifesto" definitely does not pass that smell test.

That's my view. If you view his work differently, that's fine for you.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jessaustin on Thursday August 10, 2017 @09:00AM (#14979150)
Let's just say I've considered the works of a lot cranks and crackpots, over the years...

Is that like, a hobby? And by "considered", do you mean you read them, or skimmed them, or just heard about them from uptight censorious authoritarians on the internet?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:00PM (#14982954)
Is that like, a hobby?

Actually it was, for a while. And I actually did read a lot of these works; and considered their points, very carefully; and debated them with their adherents, very patiently and thoughtfully.

Until I figured out what general superstructure of thought patterns was behind their arguments (which mostly boil down to: cherry picking; what-about-ism; and "authority, authority authority") -- and moved on other things.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by macspoofing on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:25AM (#14967160)
I've read it and I still think it is justifiably a fire-able offense in that a) it's an open semi-public manifesto against a company policy that is inline with market expectations and b) addresses sensitive and controversial issues. Try writing this kind of a manifesto, and pin it in the lunchroom at your workplace and see what happens. Jerry Maguire got fired for a manifesto as well.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by josteink on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @11:16AM (#14969921)
> a) it's an open semi-public manifesto against a company policy

It was an internal memo in good civil form posted internally opening to an internal debate on a subject related to work conditions.

Despite Gizmodo's obvious attempt to frame it as such, it was not posted as a revolutionary manifesto.

It was public only when leaked by someone else. Notice how that person has not been fired.

> addresses sensitive and controversial issues.

So if a company makes a sensitive and controversial issue an internal policy, nobody should be allowed to question it? Really?

Are you still confident in your judgment?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kafkaesq on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:31PM (#14973841)
To me what was interesting was that even the CEO had to not only denounce it, but also cut his vacation short to hold a staff town-hall.

Most likely because, whether the author intended it that way or not, the memo was draft in a way that was pretty much guaranteed to push people's buttons. And when people -- particularly very smart people who have a lot more important things to do with their time -- feel their buttons being pushed, they tend to react, and get to the root of the matter very quickly.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slg on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:30PM (#14962261)
I would argue it is the opposite of authoritarian, it is mob rule. No one person or centralized authority deemed this person's actions as unacceptable. It was the majority of the community as a whole that deemed his actions as unacceptable. That is certainly a scary thing to see in action, but I think it is a different thing entirely than an authoritarian regime.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:31PM (#14964014)
True, but this mob rule rests on the authoritarian mindset of the individuals, and their ability to coerce centralized authorities to use/abuse their power.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:51PM (#14964167)
I'd put it slightly differently: People with an authoritarian mindset stir up this mob rule as a path for the authoritarians to exercise power.

But maybe I'm saying the same thing as you are...

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:22PM (#14964998)
I think we are in agreement, though we are speaking of two slightly different types of "authoritarian mindsets".

I think you are speaking of those who wish to become part of an authoritarian elite.

I'm speaking of the mob members who simply agree with certain absolutist and easily manipulated notions. (Like: "Hate speech is violence", or "we should never question someones claim of being emotionally hurt"). Simply believing in these notions make prone to mob aggression in support of authoritarianism.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slg on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:35PM (#14965338)
>I'm speaking of the mob members who simply agree with certain absolutist and easily manipulated notions. (Like: "Hate speech is violence", or "we should never question someones claim of being emotionally hurt"). Simply believing in these notions make prone to mob aggression in support of authoritarianism.

Do you have anything to support that notion?

We are all prone to mob aggression. That is the whole problem with mobs. It allows the individual to disconnect themselves from the actions of the whole. Any large group of people has the potential to turn into a mob.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by amyjess on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:37PM (#14962346)
I call that society's natural immune system.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by amazingman on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:45AM (#14965852)
I am fond of the immune system analogy, myself, when it comes to putting environmental (i.e. social) pressure on bad ideas in real time. Like anything else, however, striking the right balance and behaving ethically are vital companions to the application of this pressure. There was no balance here, and the vitriolic mob response was full of unethical behavior.

I’m usually at least somewhat amenable to the “but the bad actors are mostly just the outliers” position, as well. In most cases, that’s true. Again, however, not here. Anyone who read the manifesto and the “response” post by Zunger while practicing even a nominal amount of epistemological integrity would have immediately recognized that Zunger’s post was wildly dishonest, did not deal directly with the content of the post at all, and apparently even thought that fantasizing violence against the manifesto author was an acceptable way to respond. It wasn’t.

I was and remain extremely disappointed in Bay Area tech culture right now. This “manifesto” —a ridiculous and politically expedient moniker— was a crucial opportunity to have a culture-wide teaching moment and we blew it spectacularly. We could have had a nuanced, intelligent discussion about an extremely personal and difficult topic while also demonstrating to Mr. Damont why his application of the very real, widely accepted science he cited was wrong-headed and possibly even oppressive[1]. But no. We didn’t want to acknowledge the facts at all, and our aversion to doing so was so strong that a witch-hunt was executed instead. Meanwhile, we still seem largely oblivious that we made Mr. Damont’s broader point for him. And for the alt-right. They’re having a field day with this, and it’s all the more infuriating because they’re not wrong this time.

[1] e.g. https://contemporarysex.tumblr.com/post/163876071377/doing-a...

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by someguydave on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:29AM (#14986803)
As someone on the right, I fear that this episode will be interpreted by folks on the right as extremely threatening. People who feel cornered and threatened and silenced are exactly the kind of people who would give themselves over to an authority who promises to rescue them from threats.

They might think something like this: "The very wealthy people who control a sizable portion of the Internet and hold vast influence in society hate me. They would gladly ruin me even if I gently express a rational and benign version of what I really think."

My point: be very careful about making threats in reaction to benign speech. People might take you seriously.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slg on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:47PM (#14962496)
I like that analogy. The immune system is generally good, but it can do a lot of damage if any number of things go wrong.

In the grand scheme of things, being intolerant towards intolerance is certainly on the positive side, but it is still scary seeing the vitriol directed towards whoever is the current target of our internet hate.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:32PM (#14964025)
> but it can do a lot of damage if any number of things go wrong.

You can argue the current anti-intellectual attitude of a large part of the population is a immune reaction to the political power intellectuals had when their opinion was sought by politicians.

You can also argue white supremacism is an immune reaction to what some white populations incorrectly perceive as a threat to their historic prosperity.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by yellowapple on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:42PM (#14963096)
If that's society's natural immune system, then my non-medical-professional opinion is that society has lupus.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kevinburke on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:28PM (#14962223)
A right to free speech doesn't mean you are also free from any consequences for that speech.. ? The Constitution allows you to say whatever you want but your employer's also free to fire you for saying it. As an example, if you say racist things to a customer, your employer should be able to fire you.

I have heard people say he should get fired, but I haven't heard anyone saying he should be "expelled from society" or "forever vilified as an outcast."

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by tenaciousDaniel on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:35PM (#14962321)
There were several people gloating over the idea that he had ruined his career, several people insinuating that violence against him would be acceptable, several people claiming that he would never work in the valley again, and several people (some self-identified managers) proudly stating that they had personal blacklists for whoever agreed with him.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by GhotiFish on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:46PM (#14962493)
To be blunt, it kinda does.

Before, the major actor that could issue genuine consequences for speech was the state. The word "Consequences" in the statement "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences", means a punch to the face or a stern shaming from townsfolk. You got on with it, kept doing your job, continued to live your life.

When the state objected to your speech, it would end your life, it would destroy you.

But fast forward to today. Suddenly loud demographics of people have the ability to destroy you in the long term, destroy your working prospects, smear your reputation, mark you as unhireable, harass you everywhere. State level consequences. It's no longer a punch to the face in a bar for obnoxious speech. It's no longer the "consequences" in "freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences". Those consequences are now state level. How meaningless would this statement be if it was "Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences from the state."

"You're free to talk, no one will stop you, but we the state still get to destroy your life." How meaningless is that?!

You say people shouldn't be vilified as an outcast. But that's what will happen!

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:28PM (#14963993)
Before, he'd have said it among his friends, who would dismiss it and forget his opinions the following morning.

He published his opinion, that Google's efforts that enabled thousands of his female peers to pursue careers there, are misguided and harmful, that some of his female coworkers are biologically unsuited to their jobs. He did it to himself.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slavak on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:43AM (#14966351)
He said nothing of the sort you're attributing to him here, yet here you are with the pitchfork. What brought this on him was the internet lynch mob condemning him as "anti-diversity" without taking the time to even look at the pictures he included in his memo, let alone read the damn thing.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by lliamander on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:41PM (#14963084)
He wasn't just using his position as a Google employee as a platform for ideological ranting. He was expressing concern over how (supposed) ideological bias was affecting working conditions and the effectiveness of the company. To my understanding, that kind of speech is specifically protected against consequences (or at least, protected from firing).
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by influx on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:29PM (#14962244)
Curious if you feel Colin Kaepernick should have been fired and blacklisted for supporting Black Lives Matter? After all, it was only a consequence of free speech from his employers.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by joelrunyon on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:43PM (#14962447)
Colin wasn't fired.

He opted out of his contract - making himself a free agent.

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Colin-Kaepernick-Opts-Ou...

This is like quitting your job and complaining you don't have a job.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by twentythree on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:17PM (#14964327)
That's not a fair comparison; Kaepernick would have been cut had he not opted out.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/05/31/john-lynch-4...

"We gave him the option, ‘You can opt out, we can release you, whatever.’ And he chose to opt out, but that was just a formality."

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by joelrunyon on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:46PM (#14965382)
I think it's more complicated than that. They didn't get along - evidenced by the fact he gave up almost $15M in guarantees to opt-out.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2017/3/1/14599712/colin-kaepern...

There's a lot of other issues here - it's unfair to say he got "fired" because of what he did last year. He's been very bad lately - huge dropoff since he went to the SuperBowl.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kevinburke on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:02PM (#14963308)
I think the people signing worse quarterbacks than him are pointlessly making their teams worse. I didn't take a position on the Google firing above; I just pointed out that your employer can hold you accountable for things you say without violating your First Amendment rights.

http://review.chicagobooth.edu/magazine/winter-2014/how-gary...

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by Mikeb85 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:17PM (#14964328)
Quarterbacks worse than him? SF had the second worst record in the league...
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kevinburke on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:27PM (#14964397)
At this point he's being evaluated as a backup and teams are still passing on him. The other backup quarterbacks are not good. http://www.businessinsider.com/colin-kaepernick-backup-qb-ar...
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by Mikeb85 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:34PM (#14964457)
That article offers good arguments not to pick him. Add to the fact a former starter is going to demand a greater salary, and his weaknesses will be more well known than, say, a rookie or someone who's always been a backup. At this point Colin has peaked and declined, and everyone knows it.

Edit - backups should be technically solid and be able to execute the same plays as the starter. Not flashy and unorthodox. When your starter is injured you don't want the whole team to have to change systems.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jdavis703 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:35PM (#14962322)
I don't think he should've been fired, no. But I also feel the NFL or team owners are within their rights as private citizens to not hire him. Does that make them racist? Sure. But being bigoted and supporting racist social policies in and of itself isn't inherently illegal.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:00AM (#14966429)
> But being bigoted and supporting racist social policies in and of itself isn't inherently illegal.

And, as a consequence, the US now has an immature tantrum-throwing child as President with a GOP doing nothing but enabling his worst actions.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by Mikeb85 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:14PM (#14964313)
He wasn't fired or blacklisted for supporting BLM. His contract ran out and no one wants him because of his terrible performance of late. If it weren't for his political views no one would even be talking about him.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by sushisource on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:33PM (#14962296)
"Feel he should have been fired" and "Wouldn't throw a fit if he was fired" are different things.

Do I think this guy should have been fired? I dunno. Not sure. I need more context.

Am I upset he was fired? No. That's Google's choice, regardless of how good a choice it is or isn't.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:05AM (#14966458)
> Do I think this guy should have been fired?

It betrayed a spectacular lack of common sense and judgement for someone in a senior[1] role - which is exactly where you'd want those in spades. Also made his working position untenable since a senior role is going to need to get along and interact with many people. Also, also, his utter disregard for evidence and inability to make logical arguments would give me great pause as to his usefulness as a senior engineer.

I'd have fired him first for being an idiot, second for his bullshit "scientism", and third having reprehensible views.

[1] Disclaimer: I don't know if "senior" within Google is the same as "VP" in banks, ie just a defacto title you get after a while rather than a mark of actual competency.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by tomjen3 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:38PM (#14962365)
That is an is-ought argument. There is absolutely no good reason political views and free speech and can't, and shouldn't, be added as protected classes.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by amyjess on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:53PM (#14962589)
That would violate an employer's first amendment right to freedom of association. If a company finds your political views odious, they have no obligation to allow you on their property or give you money.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jdavis703 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:33PM (#14962307)
> What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people.

How is this any different than if I was to exercise my "free speech" to insult my CEO and found myself fired? This was a private corporation, operating in an at-will employment state. Now if the government had taken steps to censor speech, one could argue that we're in an authoritarian regime. But workplaces have always (at least since I've been working), been places where we voluntarily subject ourselves to private authority, or else quit or are fired.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slavak on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:50AM (#14966383)
I think the problem people have with this is that Google was (and still is) promoting themselves as a place where expressing differing opinions is welcome and encouraged, and the internal forum where he posted this was apparently used and promoted as just that. (A sort of "Google-only Reddit," as some Googlers describe it.)

I think it's widely accepted that work is generally a place where discussion of politics and gender relations is not appropriate. I know I do my best to avoid arguments on those topics at work, and that's fine. But when your employer explicitly encourages carrying out this kind of discussion in specific work-only forums, and then turns around and punishes you for it when some people throw a hissy-fit, that's gonna leave a bad taste in many people's mouths.

To use your example, if I insulted my CEO and got fired for it no one would be surprised. But if my CEO was soliciting honest feedback on their performance and then I got fired for pointing out some stuff they dropped the ball on, I'd be (understandably, I think) quite upset.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by macrael on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:33PM (#14962294)
I haven't finished this because it is very long, but it is good. Do you believe in the paradox of tolerance?

http://tim.dreamwidth.org/2035407.html

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:08AM (#14966481)
Oh, hmm, I hadn't considered the parallels of the various manifestos. Looks good, ta.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by int_19h on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:22PM (#14962135)
> Not the Ex-Google guy with his medium rant about how people would punch him in the face and he would understand.

Could you give a link to that rant?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by JSONwebtoken on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:33PM (#14962301)
It's funny that I read past this line without even thinking about how unusual it is that it needs a source. I've read so many blogposts and tweets about how it's justifiable to punch people in the face over specific disagreements that I'm completely desensitized to the hilarious image of grown, educated adults lashing out just because they're losing an argument.

It seems like every time I make a politically controversial post on Reddit and increasingly HN, I can just CTRL-F my comment inbox and assure myself that there's some reference to punching in there.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by ambulancechaser on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:26PM (#14962201)
> And as for its impact on you: Do you understand that at this point, I could not in good conscience assign anyone to work with you? I certainly couldn’t assign any women to deal with this, a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face, and even if there were a group of like-minded individuals I could put you with, nobody would be able to collaborate with them. You have just created a textbook hostile workplace environment.

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:11AM (#14966502)
I'm not seeing the bit about where he says he'd understand about the people punching him in the face? In fact, he's saying that he wouldn't assign people to work with him for fear of that - which I would take to mean he disagrees with the action.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by notdonspaulding on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:19PM (#14972646)
He's saying that he would keep those of his employees who, when presented with a viewpoint which they consider offensive, would punch their coworkers in the face from having to be in any kind of a working relationship with someone because of the viewpoints which they hold.

He's very clearly siding with the face-punchers.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by zimpenfish on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:41AM (#14977673)
> He's very clearly siding with the face-punchers.

That is wholly unsupported by any reading of his sentence.

He literally says he would avoid creating a situation where even the possibility of someone punching him in the face might happen. If he was siding with the face-punchers, why would he avoid that situation?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by tylersmith on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:25PM (#14962178)
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by paapi__gudiya on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:38PM (#14962361)
This whole episode has been so disgusting and shows how regressive and authoritarian the mainstream tech community is.

People can't work with someone because he has a different point of view about injustice in the society and has the courage to voice it respectfully? They would resort to violence against someone because they have a different point of view?

If you can resort to violence against someone and get away with it, you're the oppressor in the society, not the oppressed.

Sundar, Yonatan and their likes are so privileged and delusional. These people have no issue with a war-criminal like Kissinger being invited to talk at Google but have such serious issues with a software engineer writing his views.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by amyjess on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:42PM (#14962427)
As a woman, I could not work with an outspoken misogynist. As a lesbian, I could not work with an outspoken homophobe. As a Jew, I could not work with an outspoken antisemite.

Forcing minorities and women to work with people who are bigoted against them is a recipe for a lawsuit.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by macspoofing on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:47PM (#14962501)
This guy isn't a racist or a misogynist.

A better example is an atheist working with an evangelical. Both the atheist and the evangelical will have very strong opinions on each others' belief systems.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:58PM (#14964209)
Will the Evangelical write a 10 page memo "explaining" why there are naturally fewer Atheists in his profession because their biology makes the inherently less interested in it?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by macspoofing on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:29AM (#14967189)
I'm actually not surprised that he got fired, and I do think the firing is justifiable. Writing open manifestos against company policies on controversial and sensitive issues is going to get you in trouble. It just will, whether you're at Google or 'Dave's Grill-house'.

But that's not what I was responding to. OP implied this guy is a racist or a misogynist and stated she couldn't work with someone who held his kinds of beliefs.

I've read the manifesto and it's not as strong as you make it out to be. For example, I've argued that you can't expect perfect proportional demographic representation in a free society in any field. It will not happen, for a variety of reasons that may not be nefarious. If women are under-represented in programming it may not be because of sexism.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:37PM (#14973905)
> it may not be

"May" is the important word here. We really don't know.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by sobani on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:33AM (#14978956)
Which was exactly the point of the memo!
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:09PM (#14964282)
This is a false equivalency.

A better statement would be: "Will the Evangelical write a 10 page memo "explaining" why there are naturally fewer Atheists in church organizations because their beliefs makes the inherently less interested in it?"

The answer would be yes. But it's not a good example.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:34PM (#14964459)
Is your argument that software engineering is a religion women don't believe in?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:41PM (#14964504)
My argument is that one's religious beliefs dictate what sort of organizations one will be a part of, just the same a person's physiological makeup will dictate his profession of choice.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:46AM (#14966984)
Does that imply women are not discriminated against in comp-sci?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by stagbeetle on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:42AM (#14968029)
The only thing it implies is that biology is an inherit bias within all of us.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jhanschoo on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:29AM (#14966293)
I'd like you to more closely read the thrust of his memo. His main thrust is that Google should review their processes and see if they can't create a workplace that the average woman would like to work in (taking as inspiration the average personality tendencies of the average woman), without resorting to sledgehammer positive-discrimination policies that target women because they are women.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @10:00AM (#14968857)
As a thought experiment, imagine a company reviewed their processes to create a workplace where the average black person would like to work.

It's kind of offensive to be judged by this hypothetical "average X person" stereotype. It more or less implies it's their fault, that they are underrepresented because they want to.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slavak on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:58AM (#14966421)
As an (actual, not hypothetical) Jew, I could absolutely work with someone who claims Jews are statistically better at banking; Especially if that statement is scientifically well-supported, but even if it isn't.

As long as that person isn't constantly soliciting investment advice from me or asking me to front them loans, I don't think it's unreasonable for an adult to be expected to tolerate opinions that do not affect their work.

Hell, I've worked with co-workers who consider Jews illegitimate occupiers of their country, yet we still got along just fine by avoiding talking about politics in the break room.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by tanilama on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:40AM (#14966950)
That is the point.

Avoid talking about something controversial is deemed self censoring by a lot of people here in HN.

You might be a forgiving person, but that is a gift not a necessity, and better not assuming people would return the favor. For more controversial stuff I choose to only talk with my inner circle which I assume I knew them well enough. The author makes the memo public to ALL employees, most of them he wouldn't even know their names. That is his freedom, however he should expect there will be reactions to his piece from them. And it is not really his business or within anybody's control to decide what reaction is appropriate or over the top at that point. This is internet, where things escalate proportional to the speed of light.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slavak on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:35AM (#14967225)
I tend to agree with your approach, but the point is that Google are apparently actively fostering the opposite atmosphere, supporting and encouraging open discussion of such topics in the workplace and in dedicated internal forums. If this is true you can hardly fault the guy for doing just that in a way that, at the very least, appears to be trying to be balanced and respectful.

My understanding is that is that the guy shared this memo among a small group of friends at work using an internal forum specifically designed for this kind of discussion. If that's true, I hardly think it's fair to hold him accountable for the reactions of Googlers he never shared the text with, let alone those of the world at large once someone else leaked the memo to the internet.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:07PM (#14964275)
Forewarning, the following isn't an opinion that I hold:

To play devil's advocate, what makes it right for certain groups to be able to be preferred over others? How come perceived racists, homophobes, and anti-semites are pushed out and the subjects of their hate allowed to stay?

What if we flipped your statement around. "As a misogynist, I could not work with a woman. As a homophobe, I could not work with an out homosexual. As a an outspoken anti-semite, I could not work with a reverent jew."

Let's say for the sake of this example both parties are the same in efficiency. But, come due time one party starts to openly resent the other and demand they be fired from the company because they cannot work with [insert group here]. Now, I didn't say this was the anti-semite or the jew. It could be either, so let's not shut down here.

Group A says they cannot work with Group B, because Group B holds X idea. Group B can work with Group A, even though Group A holds Y idea.

Is management really right in, in this isolated fairy tale example, in firing Group B because Group A cannot work with them?

Let's reverse the roles in the Google fiasco. Let's say it was the detractors who were fired instead of Damore. Do you think this would have been unfair?

If so, why do you believe it's okay for the original situation to happen? I'm aware there are other variables, but this is what it boils down to.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by dcole2929 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:31PM (#14962277)
That's a mischaracterization of his argument. Essentially the author argues that right or wrong the manifesto is especially polarizing and the engineer has essentially made it very difficult for him to work with anyone else at Google moving forward. Zunger in no way states that he condones, or suggests the action of punching the manifesto guy in the face, he just outlines it as a possible reaction, of releasing a company wide manifesto, which could uncharitably be interpreted to call into question the merits of female and other minority engineers.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by notdonspaulding on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:31PM (#14972743)
Yes, we wouldn't want to mischaracterize what the main thrust of someone's message is by putting up a straw man argument and then criticizing them for it. /s

Zunger's response makes it clear that the promulgation of ideas in the memo are unacceptable, but is strangely silent on judging the actions of the hypothetical face-puncher.

And as we now know from Google, taking no action is tantamount to endorsing the opinions of those under you.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by amyjess on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:32PM (#14962292)
If I were to tell multiple co-workers to their face that they are inferior to me, I would be fired. This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him, and he posted it all over the Internet for everyone to see.

You'd be hard pressed to find a company where leveling personal attacks against your co-workers isn't a fireable offense.

Freedom of speech isn't the same thing as freedom from the consequences of his actions. All it means is you can't be jailed or executed for it. You are not entitled to have people continue to have you in their lives.

Furthermore, his employer has a right to freedom of association, and they have chosen to exercise that right by ceasing to associate with him.

If this is authoritarian, than I will proudly call myself an authoritarian. Perhaps Hobbes was right after all.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by brighteyes on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:47PM (#14962504)
> This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him

That would be very disturbing, but that's not what's written in the document. Saying that there are average differences between groups, and that therefore people should be treated as individuals, is not at all like saying that all individuals in one group are inferior to another.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by nowo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:34PM (#14964046)
Everyone is saying that they are open to discuss this, but as soon as someone says what they think about the paper they are met with dismissal. People interpret his large focus on the biological traits of women, by presenting those traits as the primary cause of the gender gap and without showing causality between those traits and the gender gap as disrespectful. Because it suggests that women are primarily at fault. That he inserted a few disclaimers and tries to avoid responsibility by saying things like "possible" doesn't really make things better but further the feeling that he didn't really care to what degree it was true.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by brighteyes on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:46PM (#14964138)
Yeah, I agree. He went too far in that direction.

I think he was wrong on some facts, and also didn't explain things in the best way.

But I think it was wrong of many people to misrepresent what he said (as "women are inferior"), and it was wrong of Google to fire him.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by nowo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:07PM (#14964276)
I think it was wrong to fire him too. But honestly it somewhat of a feat to manage to criticize large parts of the organization, make a large part of the company angry and end up on big news sites, all at the same time. Especially since Google is pretty infamous for their hiring process, keeping things internal, flagging troublemakers and protecting their reputation.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by princeb on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:44AM (#14966671)
> people should be treated as individuals

thankfully, google hires individuals as individuals, and google employees are exceptional and meet the requirements of the job they are hired for, in spite of the average of their community, and in spite of the supposed problems of diversity programs.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by onli on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:51PM (#14962556)
You did not read the memo. He did no such thing. If you really think there is one passage in there that states that, please cite it.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by josteink on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:51AM (#14965636)
> This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him, and he posted it all over the Internet for everyone to see.

It was an internal memo, which someone else leaked.

Whoever leaked that memo was not fired though.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kajecounterhack on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:26PM (#14962189)
No, what the whole episode really seems to show is how prejudice that hurts people is viewed as "just words" rather than a tangible / real hurtful thing. You can't curse off your boss. You can't demean people of other genders and races at work. You can't create a hostile workplace environment and expect nothing to happen to you.

You can try to cloak it in a longform "civil" or "facts-based" document but ultimately what this man wrote was sexist lies a.k.a a steaming pile of shit.

FWIW I don't give flat earthers the time of day or try to humor them as being scientific either. You have to go back to arguing the basic laws of kinematics with them. Sexists are one of the same.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by naturalgradient on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:28PM (#14962229)
This is authoritarian logic.

A threat is never just an opinion in authoritarian thinking. It's outside of what constitutes an opinion, it's outside the system.

Hence, for the greater good, it must be not just be rejected, it must be destroyed as a moral necessity.

If you go down this road, there is only one destination.

I can sympathise with your view point. Of course I can. That is my whole point. It takes incredibly mental expenditure to not follow that style of thinking.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by kajecounterhack on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:30PM (#14962260)
No, it's "treat others the way you want to be treated" logic. A.k.a basic human fucking decency

You're misinterpreting freedom here. It's not authoritarian to have rules. The existence of rules and enforcement != authoritarian. If trump makes all the rules absent of the peoples' will, that's authoritarian. If society agrees that you're a net negative and makes a choice to ostracize you, that's the level of freedom we have under democracy.

The golden rule isn't a high bar.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rifung on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:34PM (#14962313)
I'm not sure I understand your point so please correct me if I misunderstand, but the person wasn't fired for having a different opinion.

He was fired for saying things which were deeply hurtful for a large number of employees.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by oskbor on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:40PM (#14962407)
Have you even read his text? Please quote the "deeply hurtful" passages
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:02PM (#14964233)
We can start from the implication that it's natural there are less women in the profession because most of them are biologically unsuited to it.

Now replace woman with black (or Jew) and see what happens.

Do you still think it's OK?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slavak on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:22AM (#14966557)
His main point was that MORE of them were biologically UNINTERESTED in it, not that MOST of them were UNSUITED.

And to your point... yes?

If someone said a profession mostly working outside in the desert has less gingers in it because most of them are biologically unsuited for prolonged sun exposure, would you really take offense?

This isn't phrenology we're discussing here. If you're discussing real, tangible biological differences backed while proper scientific research, while taking care to treat people as individuals and avoid generalizing based on the distribution mean, then what's actually the problem here?

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:50AM (#14967004)
Is the gender bias due to a biological lack of interest by women, by cultural norm, by harassment, or by active discrimination?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by slavak on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:48AM (#14967301)
I don't know, but I think the answer is not obvious and this is a discussion worth having. Which is, arguably, exactly what the guy who wrote this memo was trying to do.

There IS well-established scientific evidence for differences IN THE DISTRIBUTION of areas of interest and specific abilities between the sexes, although even /that/ is apparently too taboo to discuss in this day and age. How big an effect this has on the gender bias in specific professions is a much harder question, although personally I find the assertion that it is "none" difficult to accept without overwhelming evidence.

Add on to that the question of how to correctly tackle this bias and you've got an even more divisive topic, as now you've layered on an ideological issue on top of a difficult-to-isolate research question on top of a scientifically well-studied but publicly controversial topic. Unfortunately, this is the issue the author of the memo tried to address.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by flukus on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:17PM (#14964716)
If it was true then yes. If you find reality offensive then that's your problem to deal with.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @05:48AM (#14966993)
Is it true?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by notdonspaulding on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:39PM (#14972802)
Yes.

- There are fewer white men in the NBA because they are biologically unsuited to it.

- There are fewer tall fighter pilots because they are biologically unsuited to it.

- There are fewer women as pitchers in the MLB because they are biologically unsuited to it.

These are descriptive statements about reality. The world in which we find ourselves. You may not like that world, you may think we should change the rules of that world, but it is the world as it exists today. Calling it out as such can not rationally be considered offensive.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rbanffy on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:30PM (#14974753)
So, do you believe women are biologically unsuited to be software engineers?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rifung on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:20PM (#14963937)
I have but I can't quote anything because I wasn't offended.

Other people were clearly hurt by it though and I don't believe I'm in a position where I should tell other people what they should or shouldn't feel.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:33PM (#14964030)
We are all responsible for evaluating the reasonableness of claims of being hurt by someone. Otherwise dishonest or mentally unwell people hold us all hostage to their arbitrary claims.
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by rifung on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:23PM (#14965005)
> We are all responsible for evaluating the reasonableness of claims of being hurt by someone. Otherwise dishonest or mentally unwell people hold us all hostage to their arbitrary claims.

If they are mentally unwell, it doesn't make their suffering any less real does it? I admit I am biased as someone with a mental illness, I wouldn't want someone to disregard my opinion based on knowledge of my illness.

As for dishonest people, I suppose I like to believe I can believe other Googlers, especially when there are so many of them in this case who were upset by this.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:07PM (#14971959)
Thank you for pointing out flaws of ambiguity in my comment.

> If they are mentally unwell, it doesn't make their suffering any less real does it? I admit I am biased as someone with a mental illness, I wouldn't want someone to disregard my opinion based on knowledge of my illness.

I meant only to reference the variations in tendency towards certain mental behaviors (such as accurately assessing reality, or taking responsibility for emotional responses) that exist among people. I gave an example of the "mentally unwell" to illustrate that this spectrum exist, but all parts of the spectrum are worth considering.

As an aside, and to hopefully show I'm not brushing with too wide a brush here: people with mental disorders are, sometimes, actually far better (at, say, having an accurate view of events) than people who don't have disorders, because they have [in the course of learning to cope with their issues, have also] learned to understand and correct for flaws that we all have.

I did not mean to suggest that people with mental disorders should automatically have their opinion/experience/claims discounted!

We should evaluate each situation individually. But there are clearly cases where a person's claim of "being hurt" should not be allowed to influence certain decisions, or policy, regardless of their overall mental/emotional functioning.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by jshevek on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:08PM (#14971964)
> As for dishonest people, I suppose I like to believe I can believe other Googlers, especially when there are so many of them in this case who were upset by this.

This touches on another problem area of ambiguity/clarity in my statement. We should question the reasonableness of the claim of being hurt - by which I not only mean "Were they really hurt?", but also "Is it reasonable for them to have been hurt?"

I can choose to be deeply hurt and offended by almost anything. We must strike a balance between respecting peoples feelings, and not allowing manipulators to exploit that respect to unreasonably coerce our behavior.

If you take 'respect for people's feelings' to an absurd extreme, we could create a world in which I could have you jailed for posing the questions you pose above. 'They hurt me.'

The fact that some demonstrably ideologically intolerant people successfully pressured Google to fire someone for expressing reasonable opinions based on evidence - this suggests to me that our society has already crossed certain thresholds in the balance between "respect for claims of being hurt" and other societal values - such as the allowance of independent thought.

Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by ebola1717 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:28PM (#14962219)
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by enimodas on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:57PM (#14963267)
i don't get it. Can you explain?
Re:Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity by gobugat on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:29PM (#14962235)
> "for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast"

Lol. He is fine. He got fired from one job, will find another one. What you describe however does sound like the price people usually pay for not being white males. So common we don't even think about it any more.