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Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by wjnc on Sunday August 06, 2017 @03:24AM (#14940193)
I cringe when I read such Trumpian tweets from a founder. The journalist reached out a few times and the response was unclear. So he writes his piece with a pretty clear warning to future customers. Get your PR and compliance straight if you want to avoid such pieces, don't complain afterwards while calling names.

Caveat emptor. Just those responses are a red flag, if the subject is legal risk surrounding smuggling to PRC. They don't want you to know.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by rmc on Sunday August 06, 2017 @06:18AM (#14940715)
> Caveat emptor

The hell with that, the company should be shut down. Some poor soul will think it's a sweet deal. They're putting people at risk of the death penalty without telling them and implying everyone is A-OK.

[dead]
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by vertex-four on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:32AM (#14940890)
AirMule are informing the second party (the "mule") that there is no risk. Exactly how is intentionally lying to your customers to the point that you can get them killed ethical? And how exactly is it the fault of the person you've intentionally lied to that they believed your lie?

The ethical thing to say, in big, bold writing, is "we check as thoroughly as possible, but we can't be absolutely certain there's nothing illegal in the bag, and you're responsible to the authorities - to the extent of a potential death sentence - if that happens". In fact, this is hidden away all the way at the bottom of the terms and conditions! Of course, if they did that then they wouldn't have any customers.

You can be ethical in the presence of other unethical actors - that the Government may or may not be unethical does not change whether your activities are ethical.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by rmc on Sunday August 06, 2017 @08:25AM (#14941021)
> AirMule are informing the second party (the "mule") that there is no risk. Exactly how is intentionally lying to your customers to the point that you can get them killed ethical?

disruption!

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by Fnoord on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:10AM (#14941594)
> In fact, this is hidden away all the way at the bottom of the terms and conditions!

Or not bottom but slightly above the bottom, since people may skim through and read first and last part only as a matter of verification.

> Exactly how is intentionally lying to your customers to the point that you can get them killed ethical?

I suppose its a survival of the fittest, to get rid of those humans ignorant or poor enough to deal with this.

Would it pass the Darwin Awards though?

And don't make the mistake that this business practice goes right for an X amount of times. A scammer on eBay can have hundreds of positive feedback before his exit strategy.

As for the "These guys totally have you covered." in the original article, I wouldn't want to do business with someone who's manner of first impression is to advertises themselves as a hardcore gamer, a dancer (with that stale face), and a beer drinker. Doesn't give me confidence at all!

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by nolok on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:18AM (#14940857)
I disagree with pretty much your entire message but I'm surprised so I ask: how is it in any way the fault of the governments agents ?!? They don't even have anything to do with that Airmul scam.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by sneak on Monday August 07, 2017 @07:31AM (#14946703)
They are the ones perpetrating the actual violence by their own hands. I would have thought that obvious.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by curiousgal on Sunday August 06, 2017 @04:22AM (#14940379)
>The journalist

So journalists conduct their interviews in 140-character messages nowadays? I can't help but agree with the co-founder that hit-pieces should be based on actual interviews, not a Twitter conversation, ff we're going to consider this as journalism of course. If it's just amateurish blogging then I guess that would pass.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by nolok on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:20AM (#14940864)
"Do the carrier has legal protection from the content of airmule bag", thus making him not responsible if it's filled with heroin, is a yes/no question.

Anything longer than that, or running in circle refusing a clear answer, should be interpreted as "no" by the users, which is what the article says.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by chii on Sunday August 06, 2017 @04:36AM (#14940429)
how hard is it for the founder to answer a yes or no question over twitter? Dodging it by saying they are like other OBC is basically an admission that they aren't legally protecting their carriers. If they had made known that they don't claim legal liability _at all_, then i would be fine with their service.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by tajen on Sunday August 06, 2017 @06:06AM (#14940686)
The founder just doesn't understand the risk, hence this behavior.

He's the average victim who would fall for a $99 fare. He certainly can't believe the risk would be that high, hence he's upset with "a hit piece"; He probably just read a bit on the internet about what it means to be OBC. He may not even have a lawyer and it could be a side project. They describe themselves as average bros, probably not because they've thought it through for marketing reasons, but just because that's their identity. Simple guys organizing something cool, patching a genius opportunity that no-one has taken before, and targeted ad hominem by a blogger. He just can't understand it any other way.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by kccqzy on Sunday August 06, 2017 @03:45PM (#14943071)
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance, indeed.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by camillomiller on Sunday August 06, 2017 @06:06AM (#14940685)
It's true, but this is not the tone you would write a journalistically sound article with. Let's just call it what it is. It's blogging, it's great and sometimes even more effective of what we journalist can achieve, but it indeed has different standards. My personal opinion is that the Twitter interaction was enough as a comment. If that's the case, tho, I wouldn't report anything more than strictly necessary, i.e. Co-Founder answered on twitter like this, failing to clarify my question. No further comments, no innuendos to unsaid liabilities.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by curiousgal on Sunday August 06, 2017 @04:46AM (#14940474)
Even if he answered that question directly, I still think it wouldn't be enough as material to base a story on. How hard wouldn't it have been for "the journalist" to reach out for the co-founder for an interview?
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by DonHopkins on Sunday August 06, 2017 @06:31AM (#14940746)
The real story is that the founder refused to give a straight answer to a simple, explicit "yes or no" question when directly and repeatedly asked. Where there's smoke there's fire! His non-answer shows he knows there's a problem, and he's actively trying to deflect attention away from it.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by sokoloff on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:09AM (#14940836)
Have you stopped beating your significant other? I just need a simple, explicit "yes or no".

Not every question that can conceivably return a bool answer should be answered that way in PR.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by chii on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:54AM (#14940932)
> Have you stopped beating your significant other?

that's an unfair comparison, because this is a loaded question (implying you were beating your SO). The question being asked in the blogpost is asking for clarification, with no assumption behind it.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by sokoloff on Sunday August 06, 2017 @08:46AM (#14941071)
There is an assumption behind the blogpost's question, IMO: that only by being setup exactly as Fedex and UPS can the couriers be adequately protected.

Maybe that is the actually the case (I'm not an expert in the field), but the underlying assumption of that being a hard requirement is present. Now, if Airmule thinks that they don't need to do exactly that but have another means by which the couriers could be protected, they can't reasonably answer "yes" (because they aren't organized that way) nor "no" (because that's a misleading answer from their point of view).

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by idiot900 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @09:18AM (#14941171)
Easy response he could have made, but didn't:

"Not a common carrier - this page on our website describes exactly what protections are provided: <link>"

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by jsjohnst on Sunday August 06, 2017 @10:09AM (#14941380)
"I have never beaten my significant other" is an explicit answer that fulfills the question and doesn't hide behind the facts, unlike the founder in question.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by Panoramix on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:25AM (#14940871)
That's a trivial thing, you would simply categorically deny the implicit accusation. But his answer instead did not come even close, it was "I have stopped about the same as other people".
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by DonHopkins on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:37PM (#14942354)
Instead of beating them, I send them on an airline trip to Beijing with a suitcase full of contraband, and the Chinese government beats them for me.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by pducks32 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @05:24AM (#14940585)
So if I wanted to write a HN comment based on a question I had for the founder that I posted on Twitter, would I be doing a potential hit piece? Should I have scheduled a interview? This is the internet: we're all in some ways journalists in your terms.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by anjc on Sunday August 06, 2017 @05:02AM (#14940518)
He wasn't writing an interview so it doesn't matter how hard it'd have been.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by StavrosK on Sunday August 06, 2017 @04:45AM (#14940468)
How hard is it for the author to say "I'm writing a piece on you and would like some clarification on some points"?

He never told them he was writing a piece and gave them a chance to read it or comment, AFAICT.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by FRex on Sunday August 06, 2017 @04:54AM (#14940493)
I see, schrödinger companies. The answer to a question (that isn't any company secret but a simple question) is totally different depending on you being a client vs. being a journalist.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by StavrosK on Sunday August 06, 2017 @09:51AM (#14941308)
I don't so much see the answer as being totally different as I see the amount of effort going into the answer varying wildly.
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by thanksgiving on Sunday August 06, 2017 @10:26AM (#14941447)
Should Consumer Review disclose the fact that they will review the car when they buy a car from a dealership?
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by StavrosK on Monday August 07, 2017 @07:28AM (#14946691)
The author didn't review the service, he basically assumed many things about the inner workings and didn't give the company a chance to clarify.

Consumer Review doesn't have to disclose the fact that they will review a car when they buy it from a dealership, but they probably should ask GM to comment when they say "it seems to us, without having driven one or heard from anyone who has driven one, that GM are making their cars so they explode on impact".

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by thanksgiving on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:44AM (#14956402)
> Consumer Review doesn't have to disclose the fact that they will review a car when they buy it from a dealership, but they probably should ask GM to comment when they say "it seems to us, without having driven one or heard from anyone who has driven one, that GM are making their cars so they explode on impact".

Do they have to disclose that they are Consumer Review when they talk to GM?

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by bogomipz on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:48PM (#14942411)
Or the CEO of Airmule could have take a few seconds to look at the Twitter profile of the user asking questions before responding publicly.

The Twtitter profile for user @TPrphet states that he is a blogger for a site called Seat31B.

Also the blogger may not have had any intention of writing a blog post prior to the exchange.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by tprophet on Sunday August 06, 2017 @02:26PM (#14942638)
As a startup founder myself, I don't take writing a negative post about another startup lightly.

That being said, I always reserve the right to blog about anything I think is interesting or important to my readers, and this subject meets the bar given the seriousness of the potential consequences here. "Move fast and break things" is something you can do in a social app but lives are potentially at stake here.

It's also fair for me to move quickly. Airmule is out in public advertising $99 flights to Beijing right now. Why should I have to wait until Rory is back in the office on Monday to write about it?

It's fairly normal to write blog posts without interviewing anyone. If the facts are clear, why spend the time? There isn't a law that says that I have to schedule an interview with an airline before I blog about their economy class cabin, and there isn't a law that says I have to schedule an interview with a startup founder around his backyard tile laying project and Costco shopping trip.

Note that my readers are largely young backpackers - think the /r/shoestring and /r/solotravel crowd. I would have written an entirely different blog post--and one that the founder would have been completely happy with--if the answers had been different. It's unfortunate that they weren't.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by StavrosK on Monday August 07, 2017 @07:30AM (#14946693)
For me, it's about how certain you are about what's going on. If you've flown with an airline and have seen their economy class cabin, then you're okay to write about it without talking to anyone. You presumably didn't fly with this startup, though (unless I missed it in the post), so I'm wondering what their side of the story is.

It's probably "err, yes, you might get the death penalty", but I don't know that, because nobody from the company was reached for comment.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by tprophet on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:16PM (#14949175)
I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of press (and certainly blog) articles are written without actually talking to anyone; they're based on public information and--at most--email requests.

If the founders were doing the right thing here, they probably wouldn't have felt the need to dodge all my questions. I'd have gotten clear answers with evidence to back them up. Normal companies do this.

Also, if Airmule wanted an interview, they could have replied asking for a phone call and giving me their phone number.

For folks who claim I didn't clearly represent myself: My Twitter handle identifies me as a Seat 31B blogger, I emailed them from my seat31b.com address, and I publicly stated on Twitter that I was planning to blog about this. I don't know how it could possibly be any more clear. Yes, like many people in the startup community I do more than one thing (I am also involved with multiple startups) but given that these very different lines of business (a dating app and an information security consulting firm) I don't think there could be any reasonable confusion.

None of this actually happened, so I think it's pretty clear what's going on here.

Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by bogomipz on Sunday August 06, 2017 @02:44PM (#14942740)
I wasn't even remotely defending Airmule in my comment, just the opposite. Maybe you should reread my comment and it's context as a response to the OP?
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by tprophet on Sunday August 06, 2017 @03:04PM (#14942851)
Relax, I'm not going after you - this is part of a broader conversation. :)
Re:Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch by csomar on Sunday August 06, 2017 @05:12AM (#14940552)
The whole article is based on a single, short and simple question. I don't think the blogger is looking to interview him; or really want/need to.