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Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by dovdovdov on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @04:44AM (#14898819)
Well, I only saw a model X on Cebit, although the materials are good quality, the build quality is poor for the price. Then I saw a hybrid Porsche, and the X felt like a higher mid class suv in comparison. Worry not about German carmakers, they have infinite money to throw at any project. Once they decide to go serious about electric, Tesla won't be able to keep up with the competition. Don't get me wrong, I root for everyone, mainly for our future, but stop daydreaming.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by flexie on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @05:11AM (#14898915)
German car makers don't have infinite money. They run huge operations on tiny margins and cannot afford to cannibalize the sale of their upper-end cars with cheaper electric cars.

The Model 3 is comparable to the C-Class in both price and size but vastly outperforms the C-Class on driving performance if the reviews are to be believed. The bling-bling leather, chrome and wood of the German high-end cars is more luxurious, but is not for everyone.

Let's see. My guess is as good as yours but I think the Germans will bleed if they don't transition to EVs very fast. If Tesla has the market for itself in all of 2018-2020, it might be too late for VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz.

Right now, they have plans and talk, but not a single competitive EV on the market, no fleet of hundreds of thousands of self driving cars recording and learning, no network of superchargers, no thousands of talented EV and AI engineers, no remote update, no battery factories.

I sure hope they wake up. Competition will only be good for us consumers.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by wuschel on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @07:59AM (#14899760)
I agree that the transition to EV is one of the biggest challenges the German car industry is facing.

Who would have known 15 years ago that a major industry (~ 800K jobs in Germany, directly or indirect) would have to face such a storm? Fierce international competition, technologies threatening to erode key value chains - one could wonder what big strategic consultancies have preaching to the car industry executives all years long, what the innovation departments have been doing, and how company culture and the connection of management with state politics has failed to make change.

To be fair, there have been large scale mobility projects in Germany, both in the EV field, and smart transportation systems e.g. interconnection the vehicle and road infrastructure with the user. So there has been very early efforts in experimenting with these concepts.

One thing is for sure: It will be an interesting case study afterwards.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by holydude on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:10AM (#14899196)
Yup exactly this. Many people fail to understand that what Tesla built already the Germans did not even start to think about.

Sure they have a lot of expertise about building classical cars and engines no doubt about that. But TESLA is an entirely different product. It's not only a product it's a PLATFORM.

German car makers are building good machines but that's what it's about them. They give a sense a feel of luxury and high quality. Tesla built a product and additional services around their PLATFORM in the way american companies are famous for. The future generations of buyer/renters are tech savvy people not interested that much in the machine itself but about the whole range of additional services that come with the platform.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by vixen99 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @08:50AM (#14900088)
So let's hope they get a good trade deal with the UK after Brexit.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by bgarbiak on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @05:35AM (#14899020)
There are many other cars that could be compared to Model 3. Mazdas, VWs, Hyundais, Hondas. If we take only size, price, performance and interior quality into consideration then Model 3 is certainly not the best choice. But it's an EV. And others are not.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by Thlom on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:02AM (#14899163)
There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range. There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in range and price. VW e-golf costs about the same (or less) with comparable range and size. Hyundai IONIQ is cheaper with about the same range and size. Then you have the ugly EV's like Nissan Leaf and Kia Soul. Cheaper and with comparable range and size (perhaps a bit smaller trunk).
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by grecy on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:10AM (#14899195)
> There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range

No, there isn't.

Here's a chart made by a Redditor comparing price with range of all the Evs on the market. Checkout how much of an outlier the Model 3 Long Range is.

Even the Standard Model 3 has much more range than all the other EVs except the Bolt, and other Teslas.

http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by dingo_bat on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @07:57AM (#14899745)
Why are people not hyped about the bolt as much as they are about 3? It looks like a comparable car which is available now, instead of in 2019.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by justin66 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @10:11AM (#14900771)
It's a GM, so it looks like it was made to appear in a Transformers movie and people trust a largely unproven manufacturer like Tesla to make something more reliable.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by drewg123 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @08:36AM (#14899981)
There is no fast charging network to support the Bolt. The supercharger network is a huge competitive advantage for Tesla.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by grecy on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:31PM (#14906067)
You are right, I personally think the Bolt is a great entrant and worthy of a very close look.

Good timing: http://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-chevrolet-bolt-...

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by krakensden on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @11:20AM (#14901598)
People seem pretty enthused about it in meatspace, if not online.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by Thlom on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @09:01AM (#14900178)
Thanks. I might have compared range using different range standards.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by grecy on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @05:46PM (#14905681)
I'm confused - what other range standard is there, other than "when you charge it full, then drive till it stops, this is how far you go" ?
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by Thlom on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:36AM (#14958141)
Range depends on driving style, speed, temperature and probably a million different variables. I think there's like three different standards of determining "range" and they vary quite a bit.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by _ph_ on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @05:05AM (#14898886)
The German carmakers have great production facilities, technical abilities and deep pockets. Unfortunately, their mind set has been focussed on selling their dirty Diesel cars at all means. So I am doubtful to their current commitment to electrical cars, but who knows. Also, I don't see them build up battery capacities on the scale Tesla does. So, I really wish that they give Tesla a great competition, but so far I am not too optimistic.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by c3833174 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @09:26AM (#14900368)
>their mind set has been focussed on selling their dirty Diesel cars at all means

Or maybe it's because that's what people buy, since diesel is cheaper than the upfront cost of an electric car.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by _ph_ on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @10:21AM (#14900876)
Yes, they are cheap to buy, because they don't have a working exhaust cleaning and don't comply to the emission laws.

I think it is a big fallacy to claim that Diesel cars are so popular, if you consider how the public has been mislead about the illegal levels of pollution produced by the cars and that they have been sold without a working exhaust cleaning. Besides that affordable electric cars are a very recent thing, are Diesel engine cars going to be popular, if they are more expensive to buy (1-2k) and operate (regular AdBlue refill)?

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by c3833174 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @11:06AM (#14901410)
>Besides that affordable electric cars are a very recent thing

They might not have been practical, but affordable lead-acid based EVs already existed during the rise of small diesel.

>more expensive to buy (1-2k) and operate (regular AdBlue refill)?

Adblue is pretty cheap and isn't going to be used up that fast, most people are more concerned about the filter blocking up because of short commutes not leaving enough time for it to fully warmup.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by holydude on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:13AM (#14899206)
Well that's the thing they do not really have deep pockets or technical abilities. Building a platform, an electric future generation car is way different than building a car with classic engine.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by struppi on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:35AM (#14899301)
And if you believe Elon Musk's own words, it's significantly easier ;)

Joking aside - Yes, German car makers are behind on electric vehicles, but all (except mercedes now) have one. They are late, they probably are at a disadvantage, but IMHO the game is not over yet.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by krylon on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:03AM (#14899164)
> Worry not about German carmakers, they have infinite money to throw at any project. Once they decide to go serious about electric, Tesla won't be able to keep up with the competition.

If they have not come around by now, I seriously doubt they will make serious investments in electric cars unless the government forces them.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by kagamine on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:22AM (#14899240)
They have hybrids of current models so assume that they are hedging their bets and taking it slow. Heavy investment in the wrong direction could destroy a company even the size of VW group.

Tesla is a youngling with heavy investment and no guaranteed future. Like so many tech firms it could be gone in a flash. Once the Euro EV subsidies and tax breaks disappear as the have begun to do in Denmark Tesla will be on a level playing field. Expect the opposing teams to foul if it means scoring goals.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by blkhawk on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @07:51AM (#14899706)
"hedging their bets"????? Thats like falling out of an airplane and not pulling the paracute because you don't know exactly how far away the ground is and if its soft or not.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by kagamine on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @08:01AM (#14899766)
More like parachutes are deemed environmentally wrong and need to be replaced by something, so parachute manufacturers are coming up with wing suits and big bits of foam and then Parachutes_International are thinking were do we put our money and how do we change our 100 years of parachute manufacturing industry and what will SuperDryChutesJpn do and what do consumers want and where did I put my glasses?
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by dageshi on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:40AM (#14899323)
Two "governments" already have, French and British governments will ban sales of combustion engine cars in 2040, those are two big markets for German cars.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by kuschku on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @08:50AM (#14900086)
Germany actually decided an ICE car ban from 2030 on already.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by krylon on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @10:23AM (#14900894)
I am German, I don't think that is actually government policy. The Green Party has made a resolution demanding that ban by 2030.

But one party asking for a ban on ICE by 2030 is not sufficient against the German car industry.

Just to be clear, I would be very happy to see the streets rid of petrol-burning engines as soon as possible. But I doubt it will actually happen by 2030, there is too much inertia in the industry that has done quite well with one-track thinking for about a hundred years.

Someone here on HN recently quoted a business consultant saying, "culture eats strategy for breakfast". This would explain perfectly why it took two outsider companies - Google and Tesla - to develop the technology for autonomous cars and electric cars.

I feel reminded of the story of Xerox and its PARC research facility - if Xerox had played their cards right, they could have been Microsoft AND Apple combined. But the inflexible bureaucratic hulking giant that Xerox had become was unable to adapt to the new technology. IMHO, the current car companies are facing a similar situation right now. If they do not get on top of that development now, they could quite likely end up like Xerox did with the computer market.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by kuschku on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @10:56AM (#14901262)
> I am German, I don't think that is actually government policy. The Green Party has made a resolution demanding that ban by 2030.

The Bundesrat has actually passed a joint statement of the Länder to do such a ban.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by krylon on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @11:30AM (#14901754)
You are right. But still, I will believe it when I see it.
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by Denzel on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @07:26AM (#14899569)
I find this thread interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14706548

In short, odds are greater that Tesla will exist in a post-combustion world than established automakers.

I mean look at the battery supply chain alone. For them to deliver at Tesla's scale, they'd need enough batteries, which, right now, would require major investment a la Tesla's Gigafactory: which is set to produce more batteries at one factory than the entire world's current output... all to support Tesla products.

At what phase are the established automakers in their infrastructure investments? They're all years behind. And I'm afraid they won't catch up.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by dx034 on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @09:08AM (#14900223)
Isn't BMWs new battery production at a similar scale? The main difference between Tesla and big manufacturers is not necessarily factory size but marketing.

The gigafactory is huge as one building. As a car manufacturing plant it's not that big, compared to the cities that some of the other manufacturers have.

Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by martin_bech on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @06:02AM (#14899159)
I somewhat agree on build quality, but the germans will loose infinite amounts of money, if the 3series etc loose out to the Tesla Model 3 in sales. Remember Nokia? Blackberry? Ericcson?
Re:Mercedes kills their only electric car by 24gttghh on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @08:41AM (#14900012)
None of those companies are German? Finnish, Canadian (now Indonesian), and Swedish; respectively.