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Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by MichaelGG on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:29PM (#14877728)
They refuse to sell Chromecast and Apple TV - including listings from third parties. If you contact support, they will lie about it (it's out of stock, we temporarily withdrew it due to customer reports, we're not allowed to sell those products - never would they admit a ban). And it's just to promote their shitty Fire/Prime offering (searching Chromecast has a top result of Fire TV).

So they're definitely trying to be anti competitive.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by grecy on Friday July 28, 2017 @08:19PM (#14878667)
> They refuse to sell Chromecast and Apple TV

This is such an interesting topic.

If I open a fresh-fruit stand and refuse to sell the Chromecast and I being anti-competitive? How about if I grow my own fresh-fruit and refuse to sell yours in my stand?

The whole reason for me to spend money running my own store it to sell my stuff, not yours.

What about if Apple open an "Apple Store" and refuse to sell Microsoft products? Ford dealership refusing to sell GM?

It's Amazon's store, they can sell whatever they want, or not sell whatever they want. If you don't like it, shop elsewhere.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by kjksf on Friday July 28, 2017 @08:31PM (#14878721)
It's about intersection of "anti-competitive" and "big enough to alter market dynamics".

In your hypotheticals, if Ford controlled all dealerships then refusing to sell GM would be anti-competitive.

If Apple controlled all physical stores where computers are sold, it would be anti-competitive to refuse to sell Microsoft.

Amazon directly competes with Chromecast and is dominant on-line retailer in US so they do have have the power to alter dynamics of Chromecast vs. Fire TV competition. That's what makes that anti-competitive.

Notice that a big part of amazon.com value is being a platform to others to sell their stuff. I certainly bought stuff via amazon.com that was not sold by Amazon, merely distributed by them.

To go against that platform "neutratlity" (if you will) and refuse even 3rd parties to sell a very specific product, while allowing thousands more, is pretty damning evidence that it's straight up, anti-competitive leverage of their position in one area to gain advantage in another area while negatively affecting customers.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by electric_sheep on Friday July 28, 2017 @11:24PM (#14879315)
Yeah, what I can't fathom is what they even stand to gain by such a brazen move. They want to be a services company, not hardware. So why are they discriminating between $30 dongles rather than just making their streaming work on every type of device? That's what they want out there, not Fire Sticks.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by tracker1 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @12:21AM (#14879455)
No kidding... I finally broke down and got an NVidia Shield TV so I could have one device for just about everything, I also wanted a 4K capable device, but that was secondary.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by grecy on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:26AM (#14879649)
> In your hypotheticals, if Ford controlled all dealerships then refusing to sell GM would be anti-competitive.

what? That's complete nonsense.

If I want to bring something to market, I can't just force my competitor to sell it in their stores. "Dan's Cars" could start up and force Ford to sell their cars in the Ford stores - crazy.

That's not how this works. If "Dan" expects to sell cars, then he has to do that himself, not rely on, or expect his competitors to do that for him.

How Dan's competitors sell their cars is frankly none of Dan's business.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by Dylan16807 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:31PM (#14882182)
You're completely ignoring the "if Ford controlled all dealerships" part of the hypothetical. Which means you're railing against a pure strawman.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by electric_sheep on Friday July 28, 2017 @11:15PM (#14879303)
I see a few problems with this argument.

1. Market share matters, for what should be obvious reasons. Amazon is, in that regard, a far cry from your sole proprietorship fruit stand.

2. Amazon is much closer to Walmart than it is to Apple or Ford; Amazon didn't do retail to support their product line, they rolled out a product line once they dominated in retail.

3. Sure, consumers can go order a Chromecast from somewhere else; just like how users could always download Netscape on Windows. That didn't stop antitrust claims from being brought against Microsoft for their practice of tying, because they were fundamentally abusing a dominant position in one market to assure their dominance in others despite weaker product offerings. And here we are, with everyone subscribed to Prime for the free shipping, and getting an unasked-for set of streaming services bundled with. Which aren't compatible with Chromecast. Which Amazon uses to justify banning Chromecast from its store. It makes the tying of MS years past look amateurish by comparison.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by tracker1 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @12:19AM (#14879448)
But if it's "their store" and not a "marketplace" then they should be required to deal with counterfeit goods, and deal with returns regardless of seller... they're trying to have their cake and a piece of everyone else's too.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by athenot on Friday July 28, 2017 @11:37PM (#14879339)
> If I open a fresh-fruit stand and refuse to sell the Chromecast and I being anti-competitive? How about if I grow my own fresh-fruit and refuse to sell yours in my stand?

Analogies are limited but to play along, it's as if you own the largest supermarket in a place that only has 3 orchards (assume you're isolated from the rest of the world), and you own one of those orchards, and ONLY sell fruit from your orchard while refusing to sell fruit from the other 2 orchards.

Those other two sell directly to the customer (and to small grocers) so they still survive. But they miss out on the customers that come to the supermarket and might have otherwise bought fruit from those other 2 orchards.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by pgodzin on Friday July 28, 2017 @10:24PM (#14879164)
The interesting thing here is that they are selling both their own products AND providing a platform for others to sell their products. Unless they compete with the products Amazon is making.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by grecy on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:33AM (#14879684)
And that's their choice.

If I go to the trouble of building a store (bricks n mortar or online) then I'm going to sell what I want to sell.

I built the fruit store, NO, I don't want to sell live Aardvarks from my store, and it's preposterous that you think you can force me to do that.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by pgodzin on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:43AM (#14879716)
It's more like I will sell the apples and oranges of all the farms except for that one farmer who dared to try to open up an apple store. At some point, if you are the only apple and orange store in the area, the government may decide you are abusing your power as the biggest such store and are acting anti-competitively
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by grecy on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:50AM (#14879747)
Surely it only makes sense that I prioritize selling MY apples in MY store, and no somebody elses.

I built a store to sell my stuff and make money, after all.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by pgodzin on Saturday July 29, 2017 @02:00AM (#14879776)
Sure, if your store mainly sells your apples do whatever you want. But once you open everyone else to sell their apples at your store for a cut, and everyone starts to rely on it as the only apple marketplace, screwing over the apple farmer next door who tried to open his own apple store is questionable
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by gehwartzen on Friday July 28, 2017 @09:32PM (#14879009)
That's the thing; Amazon itself has sort of become a search engine of things/products. There are so many third party sellers that only sell their products through Amazon and not even their own websites that many people use Amazon as the first place to look for a product.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by hinkley on Friday July 28, 2017 @08:29PM (#14878710)
This is when I cancelled my Prime account and started trying to figure out how to put a gift wishlist somewhere else.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by dzink on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:12AM (#14879613)
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by martin-adams on Saturday July 29, 2017 @02:37AM (#14879883)
I recall their reasoning at the time was because those devies didn't support Amazon Prime Video and this was 'confusing' to customers.

I see this as flexing their muscles and stopping the sale of competitive video on demand services unless they play nice and support Amazon Prime Video.

What we don't know is if Amazon refuse to build their app for these devices.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by yellowapple on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:15AM (#14879619)
Better yet: if you search for "Chromecast" on Amazon, guess which company's $40 multimedia stick is the first result? Hint: it's named after a South American rainforest, starts with an "A", and ends with a "mazon".
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:34PM (#14877758)
Google has refused to allow Amazon products to use their apps, like the Chromecast app, despite them being based on Android, and functionally compatible. Amazon does not want to sell products which are explicitly blocked from compatibility with their products. And I'd argue that's a reasonable position.

Being upset about Amazon's response here would be like throwing a fit you couldn't buy a charger for your Chromebook at an Apple Store, it just doesn't make any sense.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by MichaelGG on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:46PM (#14877846)
Do you have a source? I searched and got this story [0], that says Bezos wanted "Prime Video Player to be a pack-in app on units sold through Amazon" and Google/Apple refused, so he pulled it.

0: https://www.androidheadlines.com/2016/06/amazon-ceo-explains...

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by jethro_tell on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:32AM (#14879680)
uh, for chromecast, they have an open API and you are responsible for making your android app compatible with that. There are no built in apps for chromecast.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:50PM (#14877882)
I'd refer you to Ben Edelman's explanation of the Google MADA. http://www.benedelman.org/news/021314-1.html (Note: He has been paid to consult for Microsoft, he's a biased source. But he's the person who initially discovered these agreements and put them somewhere public on the Internet.)

EDIT: Sidebar, but the whole "Private business discussions should stay private" comment in your link... Bezos knows how appalled we'd all be if we saw the way these companies acted behind closed doors. There's a reason the MADA is confidential too.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by MichaelGG on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:55PM (#14877916)
There's zero mention of Amazon there. My link has a purported quote direct from Bezos on the issue. If you want to make the case that Amazon's Fire devices aren't Google-suite compatible because they don't follow Google's requirements, uh, yeah, that's fine. I don't see the conflict.

That has nothing to do with Prime Video on Android (i.e. in Google Play) not supporting Google Cast. That's an intentional decision by Amazon. To enable Chromecast in their iOS/GPlay apps, Amazon just needs to register the app (https://developers.google.com/cast/docs/registration), not agree to the MADA on other devices.

Amazon might as well ban all Microsoft products because MS doesn't allow Amazon to replace Cortana with Alexa on all sold-thru-Amazon PCs.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by zzalpha on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:36PM (#14877777)
Uh, that doesn't put Amazon in the right. It just puts both of them in the wrong.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by hinkley on Friday July 28, 2017 @08:39PM (#14878765)
Any time a company starts to try to compete with their own vendors, things get awkward really quickly.

When Amazon was selling other people's products, there were no problems. Now they have their own, and any time they push those in favor of a competing option that they used to sell without any qualms they're going to be in trouble.

Apple has this same problem, but it's mostly limited to accessories. If they stopped selling Belkin and Beats and LaCie in their stores, we'd hear a similar clamor and people would be justified in being pissed off.

By that logic, one could I think make an argument that Apple are being jerks by not carrying Logitech products in their physical or online stores. Considering Logitech (no affiliation) has without exception made the best mice for OS X for over 15 years, Apple offering their overdesigned and underdelivered 'mice' and excluding Logitech is a protectionist move.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by tracker1 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @12:25AM (#14879464)
I believe Apple bought Beats...
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:42PM (#14877822)
I don't disagree that Amazon has antitrust issues, but this simply isn't an example of it. Amazon is arguably trying to ensure competition (in this case, their competing platform) survives against an illegal anticompetitive action.

The exact terms that Google uses to block Amazon devices from using Chromecast and other Google Apps is the same one they're expected to face a new recordbreaking fine for in the EU (larger than the last one) by the end the year.

I mean, I guess I could be sold on the statement that it's two behemoths throwing around their leverage to try and force each other to play ball.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by hmmdar on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:38PM (#14877788)
Na that's a bunch of BS Amazon came up with to validate their position. There is nothing stopping Amazon from putting Chromecast app support other than Amazon. The only thing I can guess is Amazon wanted chromecast to enable support for their player format and chromecast didnt'.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:44PM (#14877834)
The Chromecast app is a Google App. Google App access is conditional on agreeing to a Google contract called the MADA which requires device makers preinstall all of their software and set Google Search as default.

One of those apps is Google Play Books. So in order for Google to permit them to support Chromecast, Amazon would've had to agree to pre-install their competitor's ebook store on every single Kindle.

See the issue?

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by Rebelgecko on Friday July 28, 2017 @09:44PM (#14879047)
I read the Google Cast SDK license agreement and didn't see anything about search engines or requiring certain apps to be installed.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Monday July 31, 2017 @03:19PM (#14895084)
The Cast SDK is not at issue, the Google Cast app likely is. (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...)
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by yellowapple on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:35AM (#14879690)
Additionally, I'm pretty sure one of the conditions is also to make the Play Store the primary (if not only) preinstalled source of apps for the device. This conflicts with Amazon's own app store, which is integrated into the Amazon app (as distributed by Amazon; the one on the Play Store omits this feature).

Hell, the whole Play Store is basically a direct competitor to Amazon's multimedia offerings. While Amazon's own behavior is scummy, it's also unsurprising given the situation.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by tracker1 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @12:30AM (#14879486)
That would be for adding chromecast support to their devices... doesn't preclude them from supporting chromecast, or having Amazon Video in the Google Play store, supporting chromecast for playback.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Monday July 31, 2017 @03:20PM (#14895089)
Adding Chromecast support to their devices is what this blockage is about. Amazon doesn't want to sell devices that won't be supported by their Kindle Fire line of products.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by am1988 on Friday July 28, 2017 @07:08PM (#14878297)
They also already have a contract with Bing for search.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by cecilpl2 on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:56PM (#14877924)
It's a prisoner's dilemma, and they are structurally locked into the defect position. Neither company can switch to cooperating of its own accord without coordinating with the other.

It's simply a coordination problem.

Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by gertef on Friday July 28, 2017 @07:19PM (#14878342)
If it were simply a coordination problem, Sundar has Jeff's phone number.
Re:Is Amazon getting too big? by ocdtrekkie on Friday July 28, 2017 @08:12PM (#14878632)
Google's entire business model around Android depends on withholding their apps unless manufacturers agree to preload their apps and set default search and the like. It's not a coordination issue, their whole business depends on them not backing down on the requirement.

And being required to preload Google Play Books, a direct competitor to Amazon's Kindle platform, is similarly fundamentally unacceptable to Amazon. These two companies are completely unable to come to terms on this because their requirements are so blatantly opposed to each others' businesses.

As these mega-conglomerates start selling everything under the sun service-wise in lock-in ecosystems, these sorts of clashes are likely to increase in impact and number.