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Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:30AM (#14741780)
Because the pilot is almost never looking at a map on final approach. He is looking out the window, and in the dawn/dusk light, or with a setting sun in the background or inclement weather etc., a taxiway can look exactly like a runway.

Don't forget that almost all taxiways run parallel to the runway, for about the same length.

(NB: I used to be a commercial pilot.)

In most airports I flew into, the surface material for the taxiways was different from the runway, so sometimes the taxiway could end up looking brighter and more prevalent than the runway under certain lighting conditions. Yep, I have had moments of confusion when on long finals into an unfamiliar airport. Never to the point of actually ending up landing on the taxiway, but the confusion is a thing that pilots have to contend with.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:34AM (#14741797)
Thank you! That raises the question, (a) why is there no kind of warning system for when you're about to land on the wrong runway (there's a GPS system in the aircraft that knows where you're going, right?) and (b) why is the pilot (or at least co-pilot) never looking at a map on final approach? Is it really that dangerous for anyone to take a quick glance?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:45AM (#14741838)
Yes, autolanding, or if the pilot was using ILS (Instrument Landing System), then this problem would almost never happen, as they would be aware there was a problem.

However, most pilots eschew automation especially on short finals, and prefer the 'hand fly' the aircraft in so that they can maintain complete control over the aircraft. Not a bad thing, and pilots want to actually fly the plane at crucial times.

When hand flying on final approach, your eyes and senses are 75% outside the aircraft. All you are worried about is your airspeed, your rate of descent and whether the runway is remaining visible at all times. Your eyes are darting from your primary instruments in front of you to the runway outside, and your arms and legs are busy working the throttles, control stick and rudder pedals.

Maps and charts are well stowed away at this point. In fact, once you enter the main airport traffic pattern, they are put away as all the details should be memorised by then. At best, the pilot will have the approach plate on his/her control column. But this just gives the instrument approach paths and radio frequencies etc. and not really a detailed topography of the runways/taxiways.

Ironically, AFTER the plane is on the ground, the non commanding pilot will usually pull out the airport plate which details all the taxiways and routes to gates etc., especially if they are unfamiliar with the airport and have to find their way around.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by bronco21016 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:33AM (#14743565)
I have to disagree about the maps and charts being stowed away at this point.

I personally can only think of one 121 certificated carrier in the US that isn't using an EFB setup. These are typically mounted to the side of the pilot and there's no reason at all they can't still be on and open to either the airport diagram or the approach in use. In fact I frequently do this and do reference it on approach to parallel runways and to reference the turn offs for taxi.

As this discussion progressed, the lack of progress in the FAA adopting technology was addressed. It seems to me that the FAA is completely missing the boat on tons of safety to be gained with these EFBs due to the bureaucracy. My carrier was recently certified for EFBs and the vendor has the capability to have GPS geo-referenced charts but because of the complicated certification process the airline chose to get certified without to save money and time. As part of that we also received devices without GPS so now there's no way it's coming until the next cycle of devices. Personally I can't understand why there would need to be additional certification for something GA pilots have been using for years now.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @04:02PM (#14747537)
I am going to say you are probably more right than me. I haven't flown in over two decades, so things are bound to be different/better nowadays and procedures and safety improves.

Take my replies here with a grain of salt and as being 'old school'. :)

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:50AM (#14741860)
Fantastic explanation, and the question on my mind the entire time is "but why??"! Surely the copilot can look at a map (when I say map I don't mean a piece of paper -- I mean a digital one with GPS and everything) and see their trajectory while the pilot is landing, right? Like I'm imagining there should be something on the plane that shows them their trajectory and the runway information. If there is, why isn't it telling them when they're going the wrong way? If there isn't, why not? Is the technology simply behind, or is there a safety reason or something?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:03AM (#14741909)
Ah, I think you are picturing something like a HUD (heads up display) that they have on fighter jets? That would certainly go a long way towards solving the issue, but commercial aircraft don't have a HUD display system (though I believe the 787 has a partial HUD display now).

Commercial aircraft have a HSI (horizontal situation indicator) located front and center on the panel in front of the pilots. This instrument presents about 12 distinct pieces of information to the pilot, but once again, on short finals, the pilots is mainly concerned with (1) airspeed (2) altitude (3) rate of descent on this instrument. All of which are displayed on the left and right edge of the HSI in the form of moving bars. The information in the centre with relation to position and orientation is discarded as unnecessary 'noise' under this extremely high workload.

You are right in that the co-pilot has to work in conjunction with the pilot to ensure safe flight. Indeed, in many cases, it was the co-pilot (or non flying pilot) that alerted the flying pilot as to an imminent danger. But that doesn't always happen either. Take the case mentioned elsewhere here of the worlds worst aviation disaster. In that scenario, the junior co-pilot of the KLM jet notified the Captain (who was one of the the most senior pilot in KLM at the time) TWICE that he thought the PanAm jet was still on the runway, only to be ignored.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:19AM (#14741973)
Yes, I don't know the types, but any kind of display that can show the relevant information would seem viable in 2017 :-) so it seems the main answer to "why?" is just "because adopting such technology is abysmally slow" rather than because it's inherently a bad idea? (Thank you for all the responses again! They're excellent.) (Edit: just saw your other comment, please feel free to ignore this if it's redundant.)
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:00AM (#14742119)
Yes, because getting ANY type of new technology on airplanes certified by the FAA (as well as the relevant air safety authorities in every other country in the world) is a laboriously long, slow and expensive exercise. It is sad, but the bright side is that is seems to be getting better nowadays as compared to when I was flying decades ago.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by njloof on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:35AM (#14743257)
Also, iPads have become a vector for bringing new tech into the cockpit, since it's not physically installed in the plane and therefore doesn't require certification. You can pull up charts, set courses and upload to the autopilot.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:40AM (#14743282)
You can "upload" something from your iPad to the autopilot system without any kind of certification?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by jon-wood on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:37AM (#14743587)
I have a feeling by "upload" they mean the iPad can display all the numbers that need to be manually punched into your autopilot.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by michaelmrose on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:46PM (#14746231)
This is actually kind of terrible. A compromised ipad could either compromise the planes actual vital systems for one, any time 2 systems are in communication a compromise is possible, and for two it could introduce a subtle numerical error.

I can't imagine a scenario where this ought to be allowed.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by Eugr on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:36PM (#14747287)
Sort of, at least in general aviation. Some of the newer avionics have bluetooth interface. For instance, popular GTN-series nav/comm can accept flight plans from Garmin Pilot software running on iPad.

Now, the iPad part is not certified, but the nav/comm (including software) is.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by Eugr on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:32PM (#14747261)
What you are describing is called PFD (Primary Flight Display). HSI is just a bottom part of it, basically combined heading indicator + CDI/VDI + (sometimes) moving map. But anyway, unless you are on instrument approach (or at least have it tuned in on your avionics), the HSI won't show you whether you are lined up with the runway or not.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by URSpider94 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:28AM (#14742221)
I don't think a map or chart would necessarily solve the problem. The taxiway runs parallel to the runway, in the same direction, is the same length, and is similar in width.

Similar to how a map or GPS won't stop you from turning down the wrong way on a divided highway. Or how there have been many cases of people following GPS and turning onto railroad tracks that parallel roads. https://www.google.com/search?q=driver+turns+onto+train+trac...

It's not like it happens every day, so I expect there is some significant thought going into how to mistake-proof this particular problem.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by amelius on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @05:30AM (#14742712)
When the GPS in my car shows two lanes, it clearly marks whether I should take the left or right one.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by Piskvorrr on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:56AM (#14743373)
...but it sometimes detects your position as being in the other lane than where you actually are (or even a block away).
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by amelius on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:24AM (#14743516)
I suppose that a GPS in an airplane should always take the precision of the instrument into account. If it can't determine which lane it approaches, perhaps it should show a warning sign, and/or highlight the lane that should be taken.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by michaelmrose on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:48PM (#14746254)
We can use gps to guide munitions moving at a very high rate of speed to very small targets. I'm guessing missiles and planes have better gps than your phone.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by mirimir on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:52AM (#14744141)
That can get especially crazy during construction, and after new roads open.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by luca_ing on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @05:44AM (#14742766)
> Surely the copilot can look at a map (when I say map I don't mean a piece of paper -- I mean a digital one with GPS and everything) and see their trajectory while the pilot is landing, right?

It's not like the pilot doesn't know there is a parallel taxiway. Of course there is. They would be (subconsciously anyway) looking for it to complete their mental map. It just went wrong in this case.

You wouldn't even have needed a fancy automated system to realise you were looking at a taxiway in that particular situation. There were four big aircraft on there, with position lights and taxi lights and everything. And apparently visibility was good. It was just a spectacular brain fart.

While the system you're suggesting might give better situational awareness, it might also be a dangerous distraction in other cases -- or be wrong for some reason. So more tools aren't automatically better.

In this case the existing system actually worked flawlessly: another controlling instance (the tower controller) discovered the error, took appropriate action, and all that happened was a 15 minute landing delay and a good story. Probably happens more often than we'd care to imagine.

> Like I'm imagining there should be something on the plane that shows them their trajectory and the runway information. If there is, why isn't it telling them when they're going the wrong way?

Well, there's the ILS (instrument landing system), but pilots like to land manually. IIRC it's recommended these days, just to remain in training. I suppose it's also fun.

Also, ILS might be wrong somehow (interference, technical defects, the pilot accidentally entering the data for the left runway when he was told to land on the right, etc).

So the truth is this was just human error, and that kind of thing just happens. You know the saying: if you make a system idiot-proof, nature invents better idiots.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wbl on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:02AM (#14743407)
He did notice and asked the controller if he really was clear, who then gave the goaround. At least that's my read of the story.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by luca_ing on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:35AM (#14744017)
You're right, I misremembered.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:55AM (#14743368)
x2. This is redundancy in action.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by raverbashing on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:10AM (#14742151)
The copilot is also busy with checks and other tasks, it's not like (s)he's just with crossed arms watching the show

However yes, it's the copilot's job to double check what the pilot says and to warn if anything's not what it should be (like trying to land on a runway)

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:16AM (#14742166)
> it's not like (s)he's just with crossed arms watching the show

I mean I wasn't assuming that was the case either...

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by 0xbear on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:52AM (#14742323)
Why not put a big ass array of red lights to indicate where not to land though?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by HappyTypist on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @04:21AM (#14742447)
All you need is an universal (ICAO) visual indication for "this is a taxiway, do not fucking landing here". For example, a stripe of alternating red and blue lights.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by 0898 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @04:35AM (#14742505)
The runway is where you do want to land.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by HappyTypist on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @04:46AM (#14742553)
Thanks, corrected.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by djsumdog on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:22AM (#14741980)
I was going to ask about the ILS, which I assumed pilots always used for lining up their approach. I watched a friend of mine who was a pilot, punching in ILS codes on a training simulator and I remembered it myself years ago from Microsoft Flight Simulator 4. (now that I think about it, I think he even mentioned that he didn't often use ILS).

It seems like a pretty critical system for lining up an approach on the right runway. FS4 even had a training mode where it would display the ILS bars on the screen without needing to look at the instruments. You'd think some commercial airliners would at least put this in a heads up display, where it would be totally obvious you're lined up with the taxi way since the bar would be glued to one side or the other. Don't Navy pilots have a similar HUD for just their vertical approach angle?

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:33AM (#14742022)
Yes. I flew actual planes, and loved playing with MS Flight Sim too, and the number of times I WISHED we could have the same sort of heads up information on the real thing was quite funny.

(Also, would have loved SLEW MODE on the real thing, but that is a conversation for another time and dimension) :D

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by dorfsmay on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @06:14AM (#14742886)
> most pilots eschew automation especially on short finals

Don't pilots have a legal requirement to manually fly a minimum number of landings per month?

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by bronco21016 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:18AM (#14743487)
Sort of.

A pilot is required to have at least 3 takeoff and landings in the type of aircraft he is to be operating in the preceding 90 days.

And I say sort of because an autopilot coupled ILS approach down to 100 ft above the runway still counts. This mean that as long as the pilot set up the automation correctly the airplane will have him lined up and on proper vertical path at 100 ft. He can disconnect autopilot and gently set it down.

So one, mostly automated, landing per month is all that is required.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by MarkMc on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @06:22AM (#14742924)
What about an audio warning: "Alert! You are about to land on a taxiway!". Wouldn't that be useful?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:08AM (#14743436)
Could be, but there have been many cases of pilots missing an audible warning while under heavy workload too.

Most notably the Adam Air(?) crash in Indonesia, where the crew were so intent on debugging a faulty minor flight computer that they simply didn't hear the the warning klaxon indicating that the autopilot had become disengaged and the plane ended up rolling over, entering a spin and crashed into the sea.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by ryandrake on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:48AM (#14741850)
When flying visually (VFR), taxiway lighting and runway lighting are visually very different. Taxiway lighting is almost always blue, whereas runway lighting is white (with any displaced threshold marked with red lights). In daylight, the markings on the runway are unmistakably different.

I'm not instrument rated but my understanding is that with ILS, instrument approaches can handle multiple parallel runways precisely and therefore the pilot has the tools necessary to distinguish between a runway and taxiway when in instrument conditions. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Let the investigation happen, but from the reported facts, this seems to be a pretty clear case of pilot error.

And I think you meant to say "raises the question" rather than "begs the question."

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by FeepingCreature on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:48AM (#14744109)
With all due respect, blue and white seem like terrible colors to pick if they are supposed to be clearly distinguishable.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by antiphase on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:35AM (#14742031)
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by mercutio2 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @11:30AM (#14744991)
I’m intrigued by the question of what you were hoping to add to the conversation with a Wikipedia link with zero explanatory text.

Did you mean “look, some people think popular usage has won out and beg the question is now a reasonable substitute for raise the question”? Or something else?

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:51AM (#14741866)
Haha, thanks! Will fix that last bit.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by vacri on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:50AM (#14742315)
So many people use 'begs the question' as 'raises the question' now that it's a valid meaning for the phrase.

EDIT: To the downvoters: I don't think you understand how human language works.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by briandear on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:02AM (#14743103)
Does not something wrong enough times doesn’t make it correct.

For example using “because” without a preposition doesn’t become correct just because Buzzfeed makes it popular.

People make grammar/useage mistakes not because they consciously want to change the language but because they don’t know any differently. It’s quite different than how slang enters a language. Begs vs. raises the question isn’t some kind of colloquial thing, it’s just a misuse. I get things wrong when the language frequently enough, but when it’s pointed out, I don’t continue doing it; in fact, I am happy for the opportunity to increase my precision with the language.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by obstacle1 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:40AM (#14744057)
>Does not something wrong enough times doesn’t make it correct.

This isn't true in natural language. Do something enough times -- 'wrong' or 'right' -- and it becomes a part of the language. Like it or not.

Crack an Oxford English Dictionary sometime. Look up your favorite word. Notice that there will be tens of different definitions, including a historical trace of 'first uses' through semantic changes, for the single word.

>People make grammar/useage mistakes not because they consciously want to change the language but because they don’t know any differently

Consciously or not, they are changing the language. Language isn't a fixed thing with unbreakable rules. It is mutable. A language is however people use it; it isn't a thing to know in its entirety before using.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by vacri on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:57AM (#14743381)
People don't have to consciously want to change the language for it to change. It's not like the differences between modern English and Victorian-era English are all because someone willed it. Usage dictates meaning, and I'd say the general public uses 'begs the question' as 'raises the question', whereas only people interested in philosophy use it as 'presume the answer' - essentially the latter version has become a sort of jargon regarding fallacies.

It's like the word 'irregardless'. As much as 'it isn't a word', it clearly is, because you know what is meant when it's said, and plenty of people say it.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by sethrin on Friday July 14, 2017 @08:36AM (#14769265)
'begs the question' is a bad translation of petitio principii, which is itself a bad translation from a greek text. The general usage of the term is the only correct interpretation. The phrase seems to be a trap for a certain category of pedants.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by pc86 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:38AM (#14743272)
> Is it really that dangerous for anyone to take a quick glance?

Speaking as a private pilot, it absolutely is. Even in a Cessna you're going to be travelling at least 75 mph. Possible faster if the conditions are gusty. For the last 1/4-1/2 mile at least, your vision needs to be 100% outside of the airplane. Now if you need to do that in a Cessna at 75 mph with no more than 4 people on board, why wouldn't you also need to do in a 787 that lands at ~180 mph with nearly 300 people, or an A380 that lands at ~140 mph with over 500?

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by wfunction on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:42AM (#14743294)
> Now if you need to do that in a Cessna at 75 mph with no more than 4 people on board, why wouldn't you also need to do in a 787 that lands at ~180 mph with nearly 300 people, or an A380 that lands at ~140 mph with over 500?

Because you have 1-3 other copilots who also have eyes and could be doing this instead of you...?

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by phdp on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @06:53AM (#14743054)
It would be like looking at a map of California and expect to be able to get around San Francisco - the aeronautical charts are generally for long haul navigation purposes. There are approach plates for instrument landings, but for landing there you'd be looking at your instruments, which you've dialed into the correct runway, not the plate, in order to land the plane. In this situation, however, I can only imagine the pilot was on visual approach because otherwise the plane wouldn't have been lined up to land on the taxi way.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by dheera on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:54AM (#14742103)
Why can't they make taxiways more obvious (e.g. paint them bright red)? Seems like it would be a small cost for a lot of insurance against an accident.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by rrmm on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:29AM (#14743974)
See the Tests and Research section of the following NTSB report on a Delta incident where a plane landed on a taxiway at KATL. Note Also that the lights had been recently updated with LEDs from incandescents. Basically, the taxiway centerline was brighter than the runway centerlines and the colors of the lights were only apparent at 500ft.

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation...

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by vacri on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:44AM (#14742285)
With the setting sun just right, you wouldn't see the red, just reflected sunlight. There's no guaranteed solution for all cases, and aerospace visuals are some of the most heavily studied of any industry.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by idlewords on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:03AM (#14742133)
Runways are already very visually distinctive. An active runway at night is a river of light that you'd think would be unmistakable, and yet these incidents happen.

https://scaredflightless.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/approac...

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by willidiots on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:34AM (#14741793)
Seems like a design flaw. Do any taxiways have markings etc. to make them more distinguishable?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:39AM (#14741818)
They do. They have different lighting systems/colours etc. to differentiate them.

Taxiways generally have green lights along the centerline to guide aircraft rolling on the ground, but runways usually have white (bright) lights along the edges. There are times when even THAT causes confusion, because sometimes the taxiway centreline lights can look like the edge lights of the runway - especially if the light is refracting off a wet windscreen.

So, in the end the problem is generally avoidable, but if you are on finals at a really busy airport after a gruelling 20 hours trans oceanic flight, at night, in the rain, and the tower is trying to hurry you up to expedite traffic, you can make mistakes.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by BinaryIdiot on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:35AM (#14742030)
Perhaps this is a dumb question but is there any reason why the taxiway doesn't have HUGE red Xs going down it and the runway with HUGE green arrow going down? Sorta like what they do on bridges where the lanes can shift to allow more cares to travel in one direction but more obvious? They could even angle them so the planes on the ground see them differently or not at all.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:54AM (#14742102)
Red 'X's on a runway usually denote an inactive or out of service runway.

They ARE actually quite different in terms of lighting, width etc. and 99.9% of the time there is no issue telling them apart. Runways also have extra approach lights etc. at night to really make it clear where you should be pointing the nose.

(NB: Check out the video posted elsewhere in this thread of the cockpit view of a 747 landing at SFO at night. It is pretty clear which is the runway and which is the taxiway).

However, it is those 0.01% of the times where the weather is bad, or you are landing into the sun or the traffic is really congested and you are trying to talk on the radio at the same time etc. where mistakes can be made.

In this particular scenario in the OP, I am assuming that having 4 heavy aircraft lined up on the runway pointing at the landing plane, then 4 sets of bright landing and navigation lights on the taxiway could have looked like runway lighting, and disoriented the Canada Air pilot? Just outside speculation here, but stranger things have happened.

It's like the case of the Air New Zealand CD-10 crash into Mt. Erebus in clear weather. Non pilots were incredulous that a plane could fly into the side of a mountain in clear daylight weather, but the visual trickery played by bright snow on a slope actually fooled ALL pilots on board that they were flying down a valley instead of into an upward slope. [0] (A badly programmed navigation computer didn't help at all.)

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_New_Zealand_Flight_901

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by hindsightbias on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:30AM (#14742225)
The a/c on the taxiway will not have their landing lights on while pointed downwind.

They turn them on when theyre cleared to enter the runway.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by kakwa_ on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:54AM (#14742106)
Just a very naive question, would not it be possible for the taxiway lights to only be visible from the ground?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by cyberferret on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @03:24AM (#14742205)
A good concept in theory, but bear in mind that the cockpit of a 747 or A380 is something like 2 or 3 stories above the ground, in terms of height.

To be able to see a taxiway light 50m in front of the plane, the light will have to be angled up to an extent that a plane 500 feet in the air a mile away will also be able to see it.

Not putting down your idea at all - anything workable that will improve flight operations should be considered.

Trivia: Speaking of lighting assistance, Did you know one of the best inventions out of Australia is the T-VASIS landing system [0] that is in use at nearly every major airport in the world?? Oh, and we invented the DME too [1], in the aviation world... :)

[0] - https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/innovation/tee-visual-approac...

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_measuring_equipment

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by ubernostrum on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @04:10AM (#14742394)
A good concept in theory, but bear in mind that the cockpit of a 747 or A380 is something like 2 or 3 stories above the ground, in terms of height.

Fun fact! The A380's flight deck isn't that high off the ground. It's exactly the same height as the A330 and A340, part of an effort to reduce differences and cut down on the amount of new things pilots would have to deal with to train on the type.

This is also why the A380 has such a pronounced "forehead" -- the much lower flight-deck height (compared to a 747) means there's a lot of plane above that.

(and bonus fun fact: the 747's flight deck is way up top not for visibility, but because Boeing anticipated supersonic planes would take over the passenger market; the 747's high flight deck was meant to accommodate converting the plane to cargo use, so that the whole nose could swing open for loading and unloading)

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by tialaramex on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @05:16AM (#14742661)
Australia is also responsible for "black box" flight recorders, which are one of those things where it's really hard to appreciate in hindsight why we didn't mandate them much sooner.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by kobeya on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:44AM (#14741837)
Seems like a very good argument for autopilot landings.
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by tjohns on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:59AM (#14741897)
And yet, when the Asiana accident happened the complaint was that the pilots were relying on automation too much and didn't know how to properly hand-fly the airplane anymore.

Not all runways are equipped for ILS landings. Sometimes the ILS equipment gets taken out of service for maintenance. And even autoland has its limitations.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by ubernostrum on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @04:14AM (#14742411)
You might enjoy this classic video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10

Just be sure to make a note of the video title so you can find it again -- copies of it tend to get taken down, since American Airlines got in some trouble after other parts of this training course were blamed for the crash of AA flight 587:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by jrockway on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @06:40AM (#14742996)
> American Airlines got in some trouble after other parts of this training course were blamed for the crash of AA flight 587

More specifically, the pilots manipulated the rudder on that airplane so aggressively that it sheared off in flight. They were trained to react aggressively in the "Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program", which this video is a part of. (There are also related videos that I'm going through now that are more relevant to this particular incident; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNBmZy1Yuc, etc.)

BTW, if AA is indeed DMCA-ing these videos, that's pretty interesting. Copyright was designed to incentivize the progress of science and the arts -- not to make large corporations look less bad after they unintentionally kill a few hundred people. Oops.

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by jrockway on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:02AM (#14743783)
Ah, here's the wake turbulence one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxXwqAm1a-Y
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by justin66 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:18PM (#14745389)
From the sound of things, this particular disaster hasn't happened before, even though it's conceptually easy to imagine how it could. Is that because it's easy for the controllers on the ground to wave somebody off if they're going the wrong way, or is it really because we're just lucky?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by nazri1 on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @05:15AM (#14742657)
Side question: do you think one day commercial pilots aren't necessary anymore, i.e. totally unmanned commercial airlines? If so, how far away in the future are they?
Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by briandear on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @07:11AM (#14743138)
There has been some talk of remote piloting (like drones,) but personally, I want whoever is flying the plane to have some skin in the game. Unmanned - fully autopilot aircraft are certainly possible and I sure Boeing probably has a Skunkworks looking into it, but I’ve seen enough source code over the years that I would have a hard time trusting an autonomous airplane unless they had escape pods. Autonomous airplanes seen to be solving a problem that doesn’t seem critical to solve – given the statistically exceptional safety record of commercial air travel. Pilot error is a very rare cause of airliner crashes.

I think electric airplanes powered by Mr. Fusion mini nuclear reactors would be the future I’d like to see!

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by gruez on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:20AM (#14743910)
>Pilot error is a very rare cause of airliner crashes.

Is that overall, or as a percentage of all airliner crashes? Because another commenter stated that human error is responsible for most of the crashes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14741726

Re:SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster by thekevan on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:14PM (#14746550)
It seems like an easy problem to solve. Line the taxiway with red/blue/green or whatever color is appropriate lights.